home

Sunday Morning Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 11:02:42 AM EST
Tags: (all tags)
Share This: Digg! StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit reddit

Game 6 of the NBA Finals today. The fate of the free world LeBron James Legacy hangs in the balance. Not really.

Bob Bradley must go. Who is Bob Bradley you say? THE problem in the US Soccer team.

Obligatory video.

Open Thread.

< East African Al Qaeda Leader Killed in Somalia | Bread And Circuses >

  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


    • Display: Sort:
    Sunday Morning Open Thread | 117 comments (117 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment

    Interesting development (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:37:42 PM EST
    Huntsman running to the left of Obama on Afghanistan.

    WASHINGTON (AP) -- Potential GOP presidential candidate Jon Huntsman is suggesting a faster timetable for pulling U.S. troops from Afghanistan than the one laid out by President Barack Obama.
    ...
    "When you look at Afghanistan, can we hang out until 2014 and beyond?" Huntsman asked. "You can, if you're willing to pay another quarter of a trillion dollars to do so."

    In an interview aired Sunday on CNN's "State of the Union," he questioned whether the battle against the Taliban and other anti-government insurgents served U.S. national interests any longer. link

    If nothing else maybe this will pressure Obama to actually make more than a token drawn down in July. Speculation in WaPo that Obama's compromise position on troop drawn down in July will be 7,000 troops. Maybe Obama can sell this as a significant draw down to some of his supporters but I would use another adjective.  

    That would leave us with just (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 02:30:45 PM EST
    93,000 troops, thereby jeopardizing national security. I say 6500, tops.

    Parent
    Huntsman (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by loveed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 03:03:48 PM EST
    I saw the interview on cnn. what impressed me was how he did not back down on his view about equal rights for all. He stand behind his support for civil unions (not same sex marriage).He knows this a big deal for conservative republicans,but he is not backing down.

    Parent
    He'll run on it (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 03:41:30 PM EST
    get independent votes, maybe even the peace seeking vote, and stab them instantly in the back and that will be fine with the Republican base :)

    Parent
    Like what Obama did to the democrats? (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by loveed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:15:03 PM EST


    Parent
    Well not Afghanistan (none / 0) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:30:32 PM EST
    Just everything else.

    Parent
    Clutching my pearls in disbelief ;o) (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:44:51 PM EST
    Dear gawd you can't be insinuating that a politician would actually fail to keep campaign promises and members of his party would make excuses for his actions.

    Parent
    As I've said before, Huntsman (none / 0) (#74)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:46:02 PM EST
    -- if the Repubs find a way to nominate him -- will give the Dem ticket quite a run for the money.

    Parent
    They will nominate him!! (none / 0) (#80)
    by loveed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 10:28:52 PM EST
     There this war going on in the republican party. The demise of the Newt,Rowes,Crystal,Limbaugh ect..there time is up. Like the Clinton era was up.
     There no different than the rest of us. They want Obama gone for his bad policies.
     Huntsman do not need there money or support.He has own financial backers. He has a powerful record as governor of Utah. A history of national service.Experience in foreign affairs.
     The media will continue to dangle shiny object to the public(sarah palin,michelle buckman,rudy,perry etc.) to imply that this is the face of the republican party, but it's not.In the midterm election,the repub.party lost as much as the dems.
     The tea party will back him.

    Parent
    Sorry your right (none / 0) (#89)
    by loveed on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 06:57:40 AM EST


    Parent
    On this particular subject (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Nemi on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 07:05:41 AM EST
    I'm perfectly fine with you speaking for me. :)

    Parent
    I am not sure Huntsman or (none / 0) (#114)
    by BackFromOhio on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:16:35 AM EST
    any other 'moderate' Repub can get the nomination.  I believe -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that the majority of registered Repub voters is comprised of right-wingers?  

    Parent
    Wimpy stupid democrat (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by loveed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:50:55 PM EST
    I refuse to listen,read,or watch anything dealing with Rep.Weiner.
     The media are the bullies in our society. This affect no one but his wife,this is to embarrass him and the democratic party. As usual the dem.are more than willing to help them out.
     The american people are hurting badly. The economy sucks,the housing market sucks, the cost of education is ridiculously,the job market sucks. What do the media and the politician want to talk about Wiener/weiner.
      This a private matter between several adults.This computer chatting is part of our society. People meet and marry from internet contact. There are a lot of lonely people in this world. The wife is away for long periods of time,She might be (I doubt it)OK with this contact.Who knows? This is why I try to stay out of other people marriages. Also I think everyone in the media should reveal there computer chat and contacts.
      When would this interest me? Contacting underage girls and boys for sexually purposes.With farm animals. Nazi support. Embezzlement of funds.

    Chart of the Day on Health Care (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 02:27:34 PM EST
    digby: And Medicare takes care of the very sickest people in our country.

    Krugman:

    If Medicare costs had risen as fast as private insurance premiums, it would cost around 40 percent more than it does. If private insurers had done as well as Medicare at controlling costs, insurance would be a lot cheaper.

    It's a mystery why anyone claims that shifting more people into private insurance is a good idea. Actually, no, it isn't a mystery; it's an outrage.
    Dr. G's theory (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by 1980Ford on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 03:17:54 PM EST
    The defense will demolish her "logic." First, Dr. G claims that 100% of people who report an accidental drowning report an accidental drowning. Doh. That does not prove there is no one who didn't report it. Maybe they reported the child missing and no one ever knew the child drowned. Maybe this, maybe that. Indeed, Dr. G testified that "unless there was a good reason," and if the Anthony family was so dysfunctional that Casey Anthony would kill because of family dynamics, then she would coverup an accidental death for the same reason. And isn't that more probable since there is no history of any abuse and witness after witness testified that she was a good and loving mother?

    Dr. G also testified that because the body was in a closed container that raised a red flag. Well, of course it does. The circumstances of any dead child raises red flags, but does that prove that any time a body is enclosed it is proof of murder. What percentage of accidental deaths are placed in closed containers? Any? Maybe someone thought of it as a casket or wanted it found and properly buried (only 19' from the road and easily accessible enough for the meter reader!)

    Last, Dr. G claims the duct could only mean foul play, but that could have been placed there after death to protect the mouth from insects and bugs. Have you watched CSI and seen the bugs crawling out of mouths?

    I never trusted the trial by media conviction of Casey Anthony and the prosecution has not proved it. In circumstantial cases, if there are other plausible explanations, the jury must acquit. Get ready for it.

    Oops, duct tape (none / 0) (#30)
    by 1980Ford on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 03:21:33 PM EST


    Parent
    If you could dig up another case (none / 0) (#32)
    by Raymond Bell on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 03:37:43 PM EST
    where a child died accidentally, the body was buried, and the mother came up with several false explanations as to her missing childs' location(except the truth), that would be interesting.

    Parent
    Dug (none / 0) (#45)
    by 1980Ford on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:30:39 PM EST
    There has to be more but this one was a quick Google find. Search terms: accidental death coverup buried -Casey -Caylee

    Boy buried to hide accident

    A PRINCIPAL at an unlicensed kindergarten in a southwest China city buried a two-year-old child who choked to death during lunch and then claimed the boy was missing in an attempt to conceal the accident.

    Parent

    Verdict by media (none / 0) (#35)
    by loveed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 03:46:27 PM EST
    No dna on the duct tape. How is this possible,if  the tape was place over her mouth and around her head. I'm sick and tired of the prosecution putting on witnesses to endorse there claims ,such as Dr.G. when there no scientific evidence to corroborate.
      The prosecution job is to search for the truth not to win.

    Parent
    She was a corpse more bones (none / 0) (#36)
    by Raymond Bell on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:03:36 PM EST
    than anything else, of course you're not going to find DNA evidence from something that's been exposed to Florida's humid and hot weather for a while.

    Parent
    What? (none / 0) (#43)
    by loveed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:30:29 PM EST
    Her dna should have been embedded in the tape, the prosecution is claiming this is the murder weapon.  Per the prosecution the tape was placed over her mouth and nose .Tissue,saliva,cells should have been on the tape. The body decomposed with tape supposedly on her mouth.
     Personally I think the tape was used to seal the bags the body was placed in.

    Parent
    The tape wasn't even on her skull (none / 0) (#56)
    by Raymond Bell on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 06:16:56 PM EST

    A forensic anthropologist testified in an Orlando, Fla., murder trial on Friday that a piece of duct tape found near a toddler's skull was large enough to simultaneously cover the girl's mouth and nose, bolstering a prosecution theory that duct tape was the murder weapon used by Casey Anthony to kill her 2-year-old daughter.

    On cross examination, however, the same expert, Michael Warren of the University of Florida, said he did not know whether the duct tape actually caused the toddler's death.

    "You don't know if that duct tape had anything to do with the disposal [of the body] or the death," defense attorney Jose Baez asked.

    "True," Dr. Warren responded.

    Christian Science Monitor Link

    Parent

    The media (none / 0) (#61)
    by loveed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 07:47:28 PM EST
    Has pushed me away from hard news.So I get to watch this trail re-cap. wftv.com. They have the whole trial available.
     Coincidental am listening to Dr.G testimony. She had to know the tape was not around or over   the child nose and mouth. She is out right lying (amazing).
     The guy that found the body was not alone in thinking about making money off this case. All of the expert has monetary gains other than the fees for there testimony. Also there all connected friends corroborating  each other.  

    Parent
    Again, I appeal to your common sense (none / 0) (#62)
    by Raymond Bell on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 08:04:09 PM EST
    Even if the prosecution witnesses can't account for how the child died, why did the mother go through all the folderol of not accounting for her daughters' whereabouts for a long time when the death was accidental in the first place?

    Parent
    she's 22 (none / 0) (#69)
    by loveed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:16:25 PM EST
    and possibly sexually abuse by the father since the age of 8.She said he had the body in his arms. He is an ex-police officer. If the abuse is true. Time will tell.
     But so far all the evidence lead to the father.The duct tape so far is the only evidence  directly related to the body.

    Parent
    That's a good story (none / 0) (#72)
    by Raymond Bell on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:23:14 PM EST
    but without any evidence to back it up, that's all it is.

    Parent
    Time will tell (none / 0) (#81)
    by loveed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 10:34:00 PM EST


    Parent
    For the same reason the principal did (none / 0) (#82)
    by 1980Ford on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 11:11:12 PM EST
    Fear. Fear of her family and fear of the government. Anyone who gets the ebie jeebies for no good reason when a cop is behind them on the street has an inkling. She panicked then buried the panic with activity like a Shopaholic does. Indeed, this explains her using other people's credit cards or checks or whatever it was.

    Parent
    Too complicated an explanation. (none / 0) (#84)
    by Raymond Bell on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 11:36:26 PM EST
    There are many children who drown in pools in this country every year(unfortunately) and I've never heard of anyone, abused as a child or otherwise, behaving as the defendant did in this case with the corpse of a drowned child.

    OTOH, it's not unknown for those accused of murder to admit to burying a body after an 'accidental' death, which is usually just an excuse to get out of first-degree or second-degree homicide.

    "The race is not always to the swift, nor victory sure to the strong, but that's the way to bet."

    Damon Runyon.

    Parent

    If you want to play prosecutor... (none / 0) (#85)
    by 1980Ford on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 12:57:20 AM EST
    You have the burden of proof.

    Parent
    I don't have to show I'm wrong (none / 0) (#94)
    by Raymond Bell on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 07:56:55 AM EST
    and as the defense, you have to demonstrate you're right.

    Parent
    Thanks for the link (none / 0) (#93)
    by loveed on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 07:27:14 AM EST
    Very fair.

    Parent
    Just answer me this: (none / 0) (#115)
    by Amiss on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:44:23 AM EST
    How can anyone CRY ALL DAY and use only one tissue from the box? My feelings lean toward her being a sociopath such as Ted Bundy was, not with all of the deaths in her wake but you get the picture. Why Bella Vita 2 days after she knew the child was dead? She only had "the good life" after her child was dead and her boyfriend didnt want children? Reminds me of Susan Smith there .

    Parent
    Today (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Nemi on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 05:08:44 PM EST
    marked the Annual Elderberry Flower Lemonade Making in the Nemi household. A deeelicious refresher in summer, diluted with water and chilled with icecubes and great as a substitute for tonic in a VodkaTonic (ok, Gin if you insist ;)). And it's easy to make:

    60 heads of elderberry flowers
    3 1/2 lbs sugar (the original recipe says double that amount, but that's far too sweet imo and the reduced amount preserves just as well)
    1 gallon water
    6 lemons, sliced
    3 1/2 ounce tartaric or citrid acid

    Boil water. Dissolve sugar and acid. Pour over flower heads and sliced lemons in a large bowl. Cover and leave in a cool place for 5-6 days stirring occasionally - once or twice a day will suffice.

    Add preserver before straining. Taking steps, starting with a colander and ending with a cloth, is how I do it. Bottle. Store in refrigerator. Shake before pouring.

    Enjoy!

    Ooooh! (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Zorba on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 05:39:01 PM EST
    Elderberry flowers!  And I just bet it would make a great addition to vodka, etc.  I love the liqueur St-Germain, which is made from elderberry-flowers.  (It's very good if you add a bit to an inexpensive white wine.)  

    Parent
    Sounds awesome! (none / 0) (#116)
    by Amiss on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:46:59 AM EST
    If only I could get my grubby lil hands on some elderberries and a suitable sugar substitute!

    Parent
    Re sugar substitute, (none / 0) (#119)
    by Nemi on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 11:07:51 AM EST
    years back a friend of mine who was a diabetic shared a "sugar substituted" candy bar with me. That cured me from ever again wanting to try. Don't know what your problem is (and lol, that is not ment as it might read), but surely there are better products now than those back then with the terrible aftertaste. Or not?

    Parent
    The world is (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Jjc2008 on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 05:33:34 PM EST
    getting more and more bizarro.   OK, there are lots of reasons why but in the Sunday morning talking head world, I cannot wrap my head around the sheer insanity.
    I watch a lot of Sunday morning talk stuff....always have but have been cutting out the networks because of the years of pandering to the right.  
    I have been watching CNN and despite my thoughts that Fareed Zakiria skewed the world a bit to the right, imo, I found most of his guests to be interesting.   But this morning when I tuned in and saw he had Ann Coulter on, I was literally stunned.  

    How the hell does anyone consider this hate mongering, bigoted witch to be deserving of air time??

    Seriously maybe that guy predicting the end of the world is on to something.  Or maybe I am really in a black hole of absurdity somewhere in the universe: Andrew Breitbart is given airtime; Sharon Angle was a real candidate for office; that O'Donnel woman was a real candidate;  Michele Bachman is running for president; after less than three (less than stellar) years in the classroom, Michelle Rhee is given credence as a leader in education; Bill Bennet is still given time to spew his holier than thou morals; and now Ann Coulter is a guest on a political roundtable????

    Seriously, someone help me understand.

    Inexplicable (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 08:54:40 PM EST
    Well, actually thenonly explanation is Bill Maher's : We are a profoundly stupid country.

    Parent
    And then he proves it himself (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by sj on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 11:13:02 PM EST
    Coulter used to be a frequent guest on his show and he often introduced her as his friend.  It's one reason why I haven't watched him in years.  But only one reason.

    Parent
    The great Clarence Clemons is in the hospital (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by caseyOR on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:46:46 PM EST
    He suffered a stroke at his Florida home. No word on the severity of the stroke.

    I love the sax, and I love Clarence on the sax. I hope he recovers.

    Sending out good thoughts his way.

    h/t Susie Madrak

    Best wishes for a full recovery... (none / 0) (#99)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 08:58:07 AM EST
    go out to the Big Man...rough news to wake up to.

    I'll never forget when he was a surprise guest of The Levon Helm Band at the Beacon Theater a few years back, for a rollicking version of "Tossin' and Turnin'", with the late great Phoebe Snow on vocal.  Talk about an Super Group!  Such pure joy is hard to find in this world.

    Parent

    Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that (none / 0) (#100)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 09:39:54 AM EST
    Will be thinking of him today -  sending some sweet vibes.

    He was looking pretty good in the last couple of years since his hip replacement - dropped some weight and was moving well. I hope this is just a minor incident and he has a full recovery.

    Parent

    Obama's Winning The Future (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 07:06:23 AM EST
    is not about jobs because they are too expensive but about winning the support of Wall Street.

    Obama Seeks to Win Back Wall St. Cash

    All I can say is "WTF."

    That's the DLC model (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by Rojas on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 08:14:33 AM EST
    Looks like he really was ready to go on day one.

    Parent
    Ironic how he was sold on the web (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 08:35:59 AM EST
    as the anti-DLC option. Unfortunately, many top bloggers played "What Obama Really Meant (i.e, WORM) with his statements that told the voters exactly where he was going beginning on day one.

    Parent
    So true (none / 0) (#98)
    by Yman on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 08:47:03 AM EST
    Some people around here even opined that Obama was likely to be more progressive than he let's on, and could even be a closet single payer proponent.

    Not sayin' who, ... but some seriously funny stuff.

    Parent

    My chuckle of the morning (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:22:39 AM EST
    From Ken Levine's Tony Award recap:

     

    I find it a little odd that 30 million people will watch Bristol Palin clomp around like a Clydesdale on DANCING WITH THE STARS but eight people tune in to see the finest singers and dancers in musical comedy perform magnificent production numbers.


    Sunday Funnies (none / 0) (#1)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 11:28:03 AM EST
    With all the sex "scandal" business these last few weeks, I offer a tune that my grandfather loved. Tom Lehrer's Oedipus Rex Song. (LINK)

    And here's to a classic Game 6 in Miami.

    Peace.

    But ... (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Nemi on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:29:06 PM EST
    I don't think that's Weiners problem, though. I think in his case it's more like an affinity for ... Smut. ;)

    Parent
    I like this one especially (none / 0) (#47)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:43:31 PM EST
    The Masochism Tango

    Parent
    Me too ... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Nemi on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 05:02:44 PM EST
    But then I have to admit that I love practically all his songs, tunes as well as lyrics. And many of them are still pretty relevant, what with National Brotherhood Week ... The Vatican Rag ... Pollution ... Who's next?

    Nice to meet a like minded :D - which actually shouldn't be a surprise given your own admirable way with words.

    Parent

    Found my grandfather's Lehrer record in a trunk... (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 08:45:21 PM EST
    ...when I was about ten, put it on and laughed my little ace off.  That it still makes me laugh says something, just as you talked about relevance.  Very interesting guy.

    Parent
    Obligatory Sunday Sarcasm (none / 0) (#2)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 12:27:41 PM EST
    Amy Winehouse to start a 12 concert tour in Europe covering 11 countries over a 60 day span beginning June 18.

    There is still no betting line available on her completing the tour sober.

    Who says Rep. Weiner can't survive (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 12:47:58 PM EST
    the media attention?  Haven't heard a word about Ms. Winehouse in ever so long.

    Only thing is, I am now so sick of hearing about Rep. Weiner I really do think he should resign.  15 minutes is expended.

    Parent

    I am a lot more sick of (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by observed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 12:57:12 PM EST
    Obama. He is harming a lot more people than Weiner. Weiner had just recently been doing great work exposing Clarence Thomas's serious ethics problems.


    Parent
    Sunday Sarcasm Part 2 (none / 0) (#8)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:11:54 PM EST
    Guess it's a given that an Amy Winehouse reference could work it's way back to Obama within 2 posts.

    Parent
    by the way, is (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by observed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:19:31 PM EST
    Winehouse planning to tour the 57  states in the future? I hope so!


    Parent
    No, but she signed her (none / 0) (#20)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 02:04:06 PM EST
    contract just last month: May 24, 2008.

    Parent
    Artists can do such things (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 03:24:08 PM EST
    So can the milkman.  Except for the teenager thing.  If we had someone with such a sexual history contacting 17 year old girls around here, parents would quickly pass that information around trying to keep our kids safe.  We employ artists for different reasons, and when their lives fall apart because of addiction we make a movie about that.  Our legislators though pass legislation that affects what the boundaries of our civil society are.  You don't get a pass for this kind of problem when you are in that position.

    We have all agreed to not take many matters into our own hands and settle disputes and define boundaries by means of law and legislation.  People in that position are sort of "parenting" everyone else since we have all agreed to this arrangement.  And now they will remove Anthony Weiner from that position eventually because he has some issues.  It wasn't all that long ago that when an older man with a notorious reputation made moves on a very young girl and he was rewarded with a shotgun pointing at him.  We have evolved away from those solutions, and there are consequences still but they are different ones.

    Parent

    you are letting your (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by observed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:04:58 PM EST
    Imagination and your immaterial personal experience govern your response, rather than the facts. Unless you live in NYC, this actually is not your call to  make. A couple more points. Your near approval of vigilantism is highly offensive. It was not so long ago that people like you smugly shot fags without a backward glance. Finally, I do not care what the true dismal science has to say on this matter---Referring of course to psychology. It is embarrassing to read this pseudoscientific claptrap about addiction and tolerance in this  setting. My advice is to tell your daughters to avoid Weiner's tweets, and let ny voters determine his political fate. By the way , i wonder if you regret Ted Kennedy's last 40  years in politics.  


    Parent
    I don't have an approval of (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:27:38 PM EST
    vigilantism.  But when I was a child I well remember that law enforcement didn't really know what to do about many sexual boundary issues or with neighborhood predators. And I remember some people taking a shotgun over to someone's house for the reason I just mentioned.  And law enforcement was never involved on either side.  That was 1970.  Dealing with issues of sexual boundaries and dealing with it appropriately isn't old school in our culture.  And I don't care one wit if your opinion is different than mine and it ticks you off.  It is a free country.  I have a right to my opinion and I have had to deal with this problem on a family level and exclude a member of my family because of it.  It isn't pseudoscientific claptrap.  If it was, how could there be a place of treatment for Anthony Weiner to go to.  I'm sorry all this bothers you so much, but that is your issue, not mine.

    Parent
    you know, many (none / 0) (#58)
    by observed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 06:38:57 PM EST
    People believe in 12  step programs, but the evidence shows they are nearly worthless. The  existence of treatment centers  only proves what people will pay money for. My specific objection to the addiction model is the talk about tolerance. Tolerance has a medical definition. Idiot psychologists abuse the term  a great deal. Finally, i find your talk of a possible need to kill weiner unbalanced. I  suggest treatment.


    Parent
    Many of the people who believe in (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:50:58 PM EST
    12-step programs do so because it worked for them; as someone whose father was an alcoholic who only got sober as a result of a 12-step program and the support of the people in that program, I would respectfully put my family's personal experience up against all your so-called evidence any time.

    I don't know who the hell you think you are to keep telling people that what they think and what they feel is wrong, that their personal experiences are meaningless, but it's verging on bullying.

    Parent

    i am expressing my (1.00 / 1) (#78)
    by observed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 10:04:42 PM EST
    .opinion, just like you, only about 5 percent as often, and with a lot less repetition. Anecdotal evidence  is worthless in this context. Your being offended does not change the standard. Mt said that someone like weiner is so dangerous he might need to be shot. Respectfully, she is completely cracked on this issue.

    Parent
    Tracy said no such thing, observed; (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 07:22:57 AM EST
    perhaps you should go back and re-read what she wrote.  

    As for "expressing your opinion," you've apparently learned nothing from the "speaking only for myself" model that is championed - and followed - here on a regular basis.  That's the one where a person expresses his or her take on any given subject or issue, and does not presume to tell others what to think, or that what they have expressed is categorically wrong.  But perhaps your aversion to that model is the result of there not being actual studies that show its effectiveness in facilitating communication - damn that anecdotal evidence, right?

    If all you know about addiction can be summed up with statistics, you have a lot to learn, and it doesn't seem like you have much interest in expanding your knowledge base.

    I have said that I don't know what Weiner's actual problem is, and I certainly have no basis to call it an addiction; what matters is that he believes he needs help.  The human psyche is a conplex thing, and it isn't up to any of us to declare what kinds of approaches work best in solving the problems that arise, but I know too many people who have been helped by 12-step programs to declare them bunk.

    Parent

    you know, plenty (none / 0) (#79)
    by observed on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 10:21:30 PM EST
    Of people swore by laetrile, or coffee enemas. I am glad your father quit drinking, but decisions about which kinds of therapies to support need to be based on large studies.  Psychology has an awful record of promoting dangerous quackery. Addiction models of behavior are a current fad. Color me skeptical


    Parent
    12 step program is a rather long lasting fad (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 06:47:46 AM EST
    Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), the first twelve-step fellowship, was founded in 1935 by Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith, known to AA members as "Bill W." and "Dr. Bob", in Akron, Ohio. They established the tradition within the "anonymous" twelve-step programs of using only first names "at the level of press, radio and film."[5]

    76 years is a long, long time to be just a fad. Also to the best of my knowledge most clinical treatment programs have for decades include and recommend continued involvement in a 12 step program.

    Parent

    I am actually with you on this (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 12:19:24 PM EST
    I smoked for 12 years.  And my child hated it.  I raised a child to express herself and she did. I ended up feeling so horrible about my smoking that I promised her when she was four, that I would quit by the time she was five.  I wasn't getting it done either so a few months before her bday I got out the credit card and I went to a 7 day inhouse treatment for it.

    I had to go to a 12-step meeting everday too and I thought it was just stupid.  The first day this one guy who paid to go stood outside saying that he didn't need to go to this 12-step meeting because he wasn't really a smoker, he only smoked in the evenings after work....which made all the rest of us jonesing like mad that first day giggle.

    But I learned the physical nicotine addiction lasts 72 hours, after that my body is no longer physically addicted but it will want it still when it feels stressed.  They gave me a lot of information, like the fact that I would gain 10 lbs most likely no matter what because my metabolism would change.  I exercised my way back down and also back to health.

    While I was smoking though I couldn't see or really appreciate what I was doing to myself because I was medicated.  I love nicotine.  But when I started exercising and I couldn't keep up with this 65 year old man who did nothing more than moderate exercise and taking care of his health it really hit me what I had been doing.  It wasn't a 12 step model that helped me though as much as being someplace where people were empathetic when I was dealing with the physical addiction and then giving me good honest information about my road ahead.  But I'm sure that for some the 12 step thing gets them to where they want to be.  And maybe my journey isn't so different either because it was an inventory of what I had done to myself that really clarified the fork in the road for me and that I would be taking this different road....BY CHOICE though.

    Parent

    Since we've had better luck... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 08:41:50 PM EST
    with producing great artists, and great milkmen, then we've had producing great elected officials...here's an idea.

    Lets let politicians be human like artists and milkmen...or at least stop pretending they aren't human.

    Parent

    I am not sure I understand (none / 0) (#38)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:11:49 PM EST
    Certainly, contacting a 17-year old girl for prurient reasons may be socially unacceptable, reckless and irresponsible and if non-consensual, illegal.  But, the age of consent in Connecticut (apparently the residence of the girl contacted by Weiner) is 16.  

    Parent
    I don't think the age of consent (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:29:41 PM EST
    is going to save Anthony Weiner's image/reputation.  And as a mother, if he was contacting my daughter and I found out this other stuff I wouldn't be happy.

    Parent
    Agreed. (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 05:08:35 PM EST
    I do not think that the age of consent will save his image or reputation (unless we find that the contact was explicit but consensual, and the part of the reputation remaining to be saved is that of not being a felon). However, I did not understand your comment to be going in that direction.  Moreover, I agree that a caring parent might give pause at this point in the interest of caution and responsibility, but broad brushing all of a legislator's communications may, in fact, be unfair.    

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 06:16:44 PM EST
    But it is a concern the same way that Mark Foley was a concern.  I remember many people being upset about the power differences between him and pages, which can be titillating yet very destructive for the much younger less powerful person.

    I suppose we will know soon enough if he had inappropriate conversation with the teenager since the police have access to everything now.  I hope he didn't.

    Parent

    Law enforcement agencies closed (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 06:31:09 PM EST
    their investigations.  Nothing inappropriate, per them.  

    Parent
    Count me relieved (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 07:37:16 PM EST


    Parent
    No pic sent, and not salacious or (none / 0) (#59)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 07:11:28 PM EST
    inappropriate.  (The state is Delaware, not Conn, but same age of consent for females).

    Parent
    We could replace him with a (none / 0) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 08:30:35 AM EST
    Joe Lieberman or Heath Shuler clone.

    Parent
    Anybody? (none / 0) (#5)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:05:30 PM EST
    Anybody know anything about the fun/feats/fate of Americans living in Turkey?

    My niece is going there for 8 months.  Her fiance has just signed to play basketball for Aliaga Petkim. Not sure if I should be worried or excited for them.....:-/.  

    Insites?

    Uh (none / 0) (#6)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:08:14 PM EST
    Insights!?

    Parent
    Amy Winehouse (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:22:10 PM EST
    will be at Küçük Çiftlik Park in Istanbul on June 20 :)

    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#25)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 02:36:28 PM EST


    Parent
    Beautiful, interesting country. Advise (none / 0) (#10)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:12:50 PM EST
    dressing modestly, by U.S. standards.  

    Parent
    I thought that (none / 0) (#11)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:18:32 PM EST
    ...and then read that there are topless beaches on the Aegean coast....hmmm, such a contradiction.

    Parent
    A friend's 20-ish daughter (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:22:23 PM EST
    from S. California went as a tourist.  Only took shorts and tank tops.  The male Turkish friend she travelled with encouraged her to dress differently.  We women "of a certain age" wore long pants and t-shirts.  No problem.    

    Parent
    Those probably are tourist areas (none / 0) (#53)
    by Towanda on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 05:38:35 PM EST
    as we've seen on the Mayan Riviera, with topless beaches for Europeans and some from the U.S. -- but outside of tourist areas, Mexico is different.

    Parent
    I have friends that have gone there (none / 0) (#7)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:11:02 PM EST
    for work several times in the last couple of years. No problems reported, and I don't think it is on a restricted list. I'd love to visit there myself. Many beautiful places to see. One friend brought back pictures of a canyon area that was just spectacular.

    My friends that have been there are men, and I have not researched any possible restrictions on women, so that bears looking into.

    Parent

    I know (none / 0) (#14)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:20:52 PM EST
    it's gooorgeous there.  

    Visiting would bother me in the least...living there?  a bit scary...Thanks for the information.

    Parent

    Here's the Consular Information Sheet (none / 0) (#9)
    by andgarden on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:12:01 PM EST
    for Turkey

    Parent
    I (none / 0) (#13)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:19:43 PM EST
    I read thru a bit of that and decided that I'm more worried than excited.

    Hopefully things will go well.

    THANKS everyone!

    Parent

    She'll be fine. The only problem (none / 0) (#17)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 01:30:36 PM EST
    we (I, actually) had was observing the rule at Ataturk's tomb in Ankara not to laugh. Seeing all those pairs of patent leather formal shoes lined up I just got the giggles and had to leave.  

    Parent
    It will be a special adventure for them, (none / 0) (#21)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 02:19:25 PM EST
    a place of history and culture.  If they get to Ankara (which is not particularly fascinating) they should be sure to go on to Cappadocia--natural but odd beauty, of rock formations and underground cities.  Of course, Istanbul is very exciting with Europe and Asia mixes.  The coast is beautiful and filled with history, such as Ephesus.  It will be educational and fun, but there is always a level of caution to be had in travel these days.

    Parent
    There is an interesting museum (none / 0) (#22)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 02:20:58 PM EST
    in Ankara.  

    Parent
    I hope (none / 0) (#26)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 02:38:26 PM EST
    I hope they have time to travel.  I have no idea how busy the basketball schedule will make him....I'd hate the idea of her traveling there alone...

    Thanks everyone.

    Does anyone know the status of the current internet ban there?

    Parent

    Rationing health care-- (none / 0) (#27)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 02:44:55 PM EST
    The Bahrain Method, 24 doctors and 23 nurses/paramedics are on trial (June 13), charged with treating injured protesters thereby participating in efforts to overthrow the monarchy.  The professional staff denies the allegations and states that they were under professional duty to treat all casualties.  

    what did Bob Bradley do now? (none / 0) (#46)
    by desmoinesdem on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 04:36:08 PM EST
    Haven't been following the USMNT news.

    Lost to Panama... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 08:26:38 PM EST
    2-1 in Gold Cup group play...not good:(

    Didn't see the game, but I read my man Tim Ream made a bonehead play giving up one of the goals.

    Parent

    Take yourself to 'Midnight in Paris', (none / 0) (#67)
    by ruffian on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 08:57:27 PM EST
    Woody Allen's latest. Perfectly charming and a real mood lifter.

    Gonna see it tomorrow, I think (none / 0) (#68)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:13:38 PM EST
    I'd also suggest staying away from Super8, which I really didn't like, and thought was less an homage than a weak and irritating ripoff.  I'm really not getting the great reviews it's garnered.  At all.

    Parent
    Cave of Forgotten Dreams (none / 0) (#70)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:16:33 PM EST
    Loved it.  Even with the filming limitations, the art in that cave is absolutely stunning, miles ahead, in terms of artistic technique, or much less old cave art.  And no one mentioned this in the movie, which seemed odd to me.

    Parent
    I'm so looking forward to seeing that (none / 0) (#103)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:21:15 AM EST
    I hope it comes here.

    Parent
    Miles ahead of what (none / 0) (#106)
    by brodie on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:52:51 AM EST
    was supposedly in existence by way of what we call "civilization", too.  Doesn't make any sense given the brutal, unsophisticated caveman or hunter-gatherer groups that we're told by official history were all humans had evolved to at that time.  A huge anomaly in those caves that traditionalists haven't quite accounted for.

    Not to mention how these highly sophisticated drawings were done in the deep darkness of those caves w/o the benefit of modern means of artificial lighting.

    Look forward to seeing this one -- and someone like Herzog seems the type to ask just such discomforting questions directly or subtly nudge our thinking that way.  

    Parent

    Yesterday on NPR, the director was (none / 0) (#73)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:40:52 PM EST
    interviewed and he sd. it is his homage to Spielberg, who produced this movie.  Today, on NPR,it was announced "Super 8" sold the most tickets this weekend and it is Spielberg's movie.  

    Parent
    "Midnight in Paris" (none / 0) (#101)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 09:50:23 AM EST
    is a wonderful movie. The yellow Peugot transports us to the land of nostalgia complete with its attractions and disappointments all wrapped up in the cerebral humor of Woody Allen.  So much fun, and gee, no car chases, no teenage boy humor, no nudity (bear caution however:  there was that exposed ankle on the belle epoch can-can dancer), and no violence.   All the makings for a flop, but I hope not.

    Parent
    There were only 8 people in the theater (none / 0) (#102)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:20:16 AM EST
    for the showing I saw - 3 of them in my group. A sad commentary. I'm sure it is better attended in other places. I'm just glad I got to see it before it disappeared from Orlando.

    Parent
    I haven't seen it yet. But is is playing (none / 0) (#105)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 11:48:53 AM EST
    at a stadium-seated multiplex plus at both "art" houses--every hour.  

    Parent
    thank god, there is hope for the (none / 0) (#107)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 12:10:36 PM EST
    world, if not for Orlando!

    Parent
    Once upon a time ... (none / 0) (#110)
    by Nemi on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 03:24:02 PM EST
    ... I used to watch the premieres of his movies in N.Y. Greatest atmosphere ever. :) You could almost smell and taste the anticipation and expectations. I guess that, apart from Europe, where his movies are loved, N.Y. is where his core audience is ... or were?

    Parent
    OF much less old cave art (none / 0) (#71)
    by Dadler on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:17:23 PM EST
    bah

    I'm wondering... (none / 0) (#77)
    by desertswine on Sun Jun 12, 2011 at 09:53:02 PM EST
    whatever happened to the blogger that used to be known as Riverbend. Had a blog called Baghdad Burning. The last I remember her family had left Iraq because of the violence and wound up in Syria.

    Now Syria is a bloody mess and I was just wondering.

    Oculus and others (none / 0) (#109)
    by lilburro on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 01:07:14 PM EST
    any recordings of Don Giovanni that you would particularly recommend?  I am more or less an opera newbie.

    Probably not (none / 0) (#111)
    by Nemi on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 04:11:35 PM EST
    the right one to answer your question as 1) I am all consuming and 2) my own copy actually are records, you know, old fashion LPs. :) (Sherill Milnes, Karl Böhm and the Wiener Philharmoniker.)

    But if I may, why did you pick Don Giovanni? Not that I have any objections whatsoever, it's a wonderful opera, but out of interest and curiosity.

    Parent

    I was reading (none / 0) (#112)
    by lilburro on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 06:18:57 PM EST
    "The Broken Home" by James Merrill and he references Don Giovanni in the poem.  According to my American Poetry textbook from college anyway :P  (the "stone guest" line).  The avenging statue theme is also present in one of my favorite pop songs, "The General Says" by an artist named Toog.  I just thought it was an odd coincidence.  And Don Giovanni is a huge horndog - that certainly hasn't lost its relevancy!

    On top of all that, I think my initiation into the world of opera is long overdue and my attention span has expanded to the point where I think I would enjoy it.

    Parent

    I love the opera, but (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by christinep on Mon Jun 13, 2011 at 09:43:15 PM EST
    suggest that you might want to start with Mozart's "Marriage of Figaro" (my all-time favorite is the great LP recording by Colin Davis)followed by "Cosi Fan Tutte" because it is good to build up to Giovanni in style, development, and feel.

    I also like an old LP recording on Angel records with Nicolai Ghiaurov, Nicolai Gedda, Christa Ludwig, etc. & conductor O. Klemperer. But, IMO, what is good to know going in is that people have very different approaches & responses to how they conceptualize & prefer Giovanni (ex.: my husband & I approach it very differently.) Exploring different interpretations...central to finding your own interpretation here.

    Parent

    As someone (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Nemi on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 06:54:17 AM EST
    who was "brought up on" classical music and opera, and love it, it always makes me happy when others "come to Opera" ... so to speak. ;) But I'm no missionary - I don't believe you can force people to like opera - or classical music for that matter. What pains me though, is when people, not familiar with opera, starts with Wagner and, understandably, as a result never again gives opera a chance.

    I think you'll be fine starting with Don Giovanni - and as you mention the theme is kind of relevant/ current :) - but I'm with Christine that "Marriage of Figaro" is a great start for a "newbie" like yourself. I believe that was my own first opera experience. Love it! If you've ever watched "The Shawshank Redemption" you might recall the scene where Tim Robbins as Andy Dufresne has locked himself into the wardens office, put on a record and opened the microphones. The men in the yard are mesmerized, and afterwards, Morgan Freeman playing 'Red' says:

    I have no idea to this day what those two Italian ladies were singing about. Truth is, I don't wanna know. Some things are best left unsaid. I like to think they were singing about something so beautiful it can't be expressed in words, and makes your heart ache because of it. I tell you, those voices soared higher and farther than anybody in a grey place dares to dream. It was like some beautiful bird flapped into our drab little cage and made those walls dissolve away, and for the briefest of moments, every last man at Shawshank felt free.
    That duet was from The Marriage of Figaro. :)

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#118)
    by lilburro on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 07:58:59 AM EST
    christinep and Nemi.  I'll take your advice and check out The Marriage of Figaro first.  When I was first introduced to opera, it still sounded like Looney Tunes to me.  Kind of embarrassing (for me) although I do love Looney Tunes.

    Parent
    Good...and some more (none / 0) (#120)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 14, 2011 at 12:36:18 PM EST
    The story behind Figaro: Considered almost revolutionary for its time in that the principal character of Figaro, a craftsman/worker bee in the society of the 1700s, outcrafts the Count via intelligence & sheer love of life. Societal roles are somewhat reversed (or, at least, examined.) The Count also can be seen in some of the philandering shenanigans of our day.

    And yet, Figaro calls us to take the broad view...to love, laugh, and--as we all are called to do at times--to reconcile in peace. (When I wanted to cheer myself up on some not-to-nice mornings, I would get off the bus early and walk to work humming from Mozart (or trying to sing if no one was too close by.)

    Bona fortuna!

    Parent

    Sunday Morning Open Thread | 117 comments (117 topical)

    Readers Must Login or Create an Account to Comment