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Saturday College Football Open Thread

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Blog Related
Posted on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 11:05:18 AM EST
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The picks:

SMU -14 over Rice, Ohio State over Michigan (+300), Texas Tech +14 over Baylor (2 units), Oregon -28 over Oregon State (2 units), Marshall -3 over East Carolina, Mississippi +17 over Mississippi State, Wisconsin -14½ over Penn State (2 units), Missouri -26 over Kansas (2 units), Connecticut 0ver Rutgers (+175), Clemson (+155) over South Carolina, Oklahoma -28½ over Iowa State (2 units) Alabama (-21) over Auburn, Georgia -6 over Georgia Tech, Vanderbilt -1½ over Wake Forest.

Best bet - Stanford -7 over Notre Dame (5 units.)

Go Gators!

Open Thread.

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    Saturday College Football Open Thread | 101 comments (101 topical)

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    whoever here was going (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by jondee on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 01:30:13 PM EST
    on the other night about Carib Indians and the Aztecs, should be prepared to offer a defense of the moral superiority of European cultural byproducts like the Holocaust, nuclear war, the slave trade, World Wars I and II, the electric chair and Fox News -- before attempting to make some ham-handed point about how hundreds of different tribes with hundreds of different cultural traditions were all cannibals..

    And then there's that marvelous tradition - fully embraced and promulagated by the religious right in this country - of a "loving", God the Father who treats his own son the way Aztec high priests treated their victims. Such a lovely symbolic tradition that. An example to all of us..  

    I know.. and we don't even (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by observed on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 09:25:10 PM EST
    have capital punishment for miscreant bankers.


    Parent
    No one said all (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 11:13:23 PM EST
    I also made the point that we shouldn't judge the Europeans based on today's standards, but in standards in effect then.

    As for your other dredged up stuff, I'll just note that we fought WWII to shut down Hitler and the Cold War to shut down the Soviet, the Civil War over slavery, etc., etc.

    But if you want to live like they did, be my guest.
    Don't forget to understand there's no such thing as free speech!

    Parent

    Whoa.. "civil war"?? (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by observed on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 12:17:53 AM EST
    You don't mean "War of northern aggression"?

    Parent
    Hmmmm (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 08:42:34 AM EST
    Can't you be civil?

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#49)
    by cal1942 on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 02:17:03 PM EST
    I also made the point that we shouldn't judge the Europeans based on today's standards, but in standards in effect then.

    Agree.  We are all creatures of our times.

    Parent

    "Dreged up stuff" (none / 0) (#86)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 01:49:02 PM EST
    I love it.

    Of course, you seem to think that what "the NA" Aztecs and Carib indians did 500 years ago is an issue of utmost relevance to a discussion about NAs today.  

    Free speech..another thing thats wasted on you. That and free thought.

    Parent

    Also interesting (none / 0) (#43)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 09:56:44 AM EST
    As it turns out, the Carib people were not "cannibals" in the common usage of that word.  As part of their war rituals, they would bite and spit out the flesh of a brave, enemy warrior.  The European explorers naturally used this as a legal pretext to enslave them.  IOW, the only witnesses to the Carib "cannibalism" were some people who were profiting from using these stories to justify the sale of the Caribes as slaves.

    From their own links:

    Instances of cannibalism were noted as a feature of war rituals: the limbs of victims may have been taken home as trophies. The Kalinago would chew and spit out one mouthful of flesh of a very brave warrior, so that he could take on his bravery; but there was no evidence that they ate humans to satisfy hunger...

    Historians have described the cannibalism as related to war rituals. Columbus and his people did not understand what they were seeing, and they were shocked at this cannibalism. In 1503, Queen Isabella ruled that only people who were better off under slavery (a definition which explicitly included cannibals) could legally be taken as slaves. This provided Spaniards an incentive and legalistic pretext for identifying various Amerindian groups as cannibals to enslave them and take their lands away.

    ...

    Finally, the Carib people of South America were said to kill and eat prisoners of war, though it's been pointed out that the Spaniards who made this claim were lining their own pockets by doing so (Queen Isabella had forbidden her subjects from selling Africans, or Indians, as slaves unless they were cannibals)...
    ...

    Cannibalism should not be considered part of American Indian culture on this account any more than it would be considered part of European or American culture--it was culturally unacceptable behavior. The Sioux considered cannibalism a sin, the Cree considered it a mental illness, the Algonquin and Ojibwe considered it a sign of possession by an evil spirit. In almost all cases, American Indian cannibals--just like European or American cannibals--were put to death as soon as they were discovered.

    Parent

    Of course. Some of us do the same (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Towanda on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 11:52:01 AM EST
    symbolic exercise in worship today.

    If only those Caribs had used wafers or grape juice. . . .

    Parent

    You are right (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 02:51:13 PM EST
    Cannibalism was practiced in some contemporary Native American societies, particularly among tribes of the north and the west. Jesuits living with the Iroquois recorded it, like torture, among the victors over those defeated in battle, and there is evidence that these customs endured into the eighteenth century. But the Iroquois, Mohawk, and other peoples surrounded their cannibalism with strict and complex taboos; never simply gastronomic, it was usually confined to strengthening or purification rituals, or to the systematic humiliation of foes.

    I'm sure the main course would have agreed that a wafer and wine would be substitute for their liver, right leg, short ribs.......or whatever.

    I mean, really. It's okay if it is part of a ritual???

    Wow. The things I learn.

    Parent

    Link (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 02:51:51 PM EST
    Link

    Parent
    From your link: (none / 0) (#58)
    by observed on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 03:06:37 PM EST
    Ironically, it is the English who demonstrably resorted to cannibalism in the early days of the Jamestown colony. When grisly reports reached England, carried by runaways on board the Swallow in the summer of 1610, they caused a stir

    Let's see: ritual, symbolic cannibalism towards vanquished foes, or the Inquisition.
    Let's put Jim on the rack and see what he REALLY thinks about the question of who was more civilized.


    Parent

    and speaking of ritual torture (none / 0) (#59)
    by observed on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 03:21:30 PM EST
    how about drawing and quartering?
    And does anyone remember the opening scene of Foucault's Discipline and Punish?
    He described the 18th century execution of an attempted regicide in France.
    Horrific.

    Parent
    As I have already noted (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 03:44:46 PM EST
    I judge the actions of the Europeans by the standards at that time. Just as I do the NA's.

    The issue then, which was the worse between the two at that time.

    On one hand we have a stone age society without horses or metal tools who practice human sacrifice and (okay, just to please Yman) ritual cannibalism (as if that made a difference to the person selected to be dinner)and no indication of advancement.

    On the other we have an expansionist society with advancing technology that has some nasty punishments along with a Reformation of Catholicism that is slowly producing a secular society and the human rights we have today.

    You pick'em!

    Parent

    An interesting scifi concept (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 03:48:54 PM EST
    would be to invent a world in which Europe was wiped out and never came to America... and what kind of society would be found here.

    Parent
    still making a couple of tribes (none / 0) (#92)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 02:41:19 PM EST
    all tribes, I see.

    Are the guy who said we'd need to keep an eye on all those userers with big noses, and all them colored fellers just waiting for a crack at our women? I think so.

    Parent

    Why is it always the (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 03:30:46 PM EST
    the Left who wants to go for physical action?

    "I want to shoot everyone in this room," another tweet said. "Never been this angry."

    Link

    BTW - The other day I added a comment re the S American airline crash in which survivors did a bit of eating their fellow travelers.

    You see, my original comment wasn't to excuse the Europeans. It was in response to Zorba's talking about how the white man had entered the America's illegally.

    And the inference that the existing stone age mostly hunter/gather societies were better than the Europeans.


    Parent

    stone age.. (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 02:08:14 PM EST
    and "mostly hunter/gatherer" is another stupid, inaccurate gloss on existing conditions on the continent as it was then.

    You're pulling this stuff out of an overstocked, AM talk radio-educated, place where angels (but not proctologists) fear to tread, I'm afraid.

    Parent

    The Donner Party.. (none / 0) (#88)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 01:58:31 PM EST
    during the seige of Stalingrad; the crew of the whaling ship the Essex..

    Thats just off the top of my head..

    Will future might-makes-right, crypto-racists see the evidence from Jamestown etc and try to use it to make some heavy-handed point about "EAs"?

    Parent

    I love (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Zorba on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 04:16:02 PM EST
    this blog.  Where else can you read about point spreads in college football, be treated to well-reasoned critiques of movies (and books and music), have lively political discussions, find out about what other people are cooking, get interesting and useful travel and vacation advice, as well as learn about what is going on in the legal field regarding criminal justice?  Among many other things.  All in one place.

    The relatives have departed, we had a wonderful visit, and it seems as though they had a great time, too.  They got to see various Smithsonian museums and sights in DC, the Inner Harbor and National Aquarium in Baltimore, the Antietam Battlefield, and various nature trails and state parks.  The kids were particularly taken with the National Air and Space Museum Udvar-Hazy Center near Dulles Airport, as well as the National Aquarium.  (Sharks, odd fish, aircraft, the space shuttle and flight simulators- heaven for kids, and for adults, too!)  A good time was had by all.  I'm exhausted, but wouldn't have missed it for the world.  

    I still wish one of our headliners would (none / 0) (#16)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 04:24:34 PM EST
    post a reg. "What are you reading" diary.  

    Parent
    I know what you're saying, (none / 0) (#17)
    by Zorba on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 04:49:20 PM EST
    oculus.  But that certainly doesn't stop us commenters from bringing this up in open threads.  Now that the guests have gone, and as soon as I finish washing a mound of sheets and towels, I'm going to begin The Sorcerer's Apprentice:  A Season in the Kitchen at Ferran Adria's elBulli, which I had just bought before the family arrived.  It's about the world-acclaimed and influential elBulli restaurant in Spain, now sadly closed, although it is supposed to re-open in 2014 as "a foundation dedicated to culinary creativity."  I imagine that I will be commenting on it when I have finished.  

    Parent
    I am enjoying reading Paul Bowles (5.00 / 0) (#18)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 04:52:59 PM EST
    "travels," w/intro by Paul Theroux.  Much more than about his travels, as he acquires a lot of information about politics, history, etc.

    And am listening to CDs of Shakespeare's "Twelfth Night," which I just saw again recently but couldn't pick up some of the dialog.  

    Parent

    We are all going to 'Hugo' tonight (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 05:46:40 PM EST


    Parent
    Let us know how y'all like it. One review (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 08:18:31 PM EST
    sd., too much slap stick.  But I suspect that's what makes it entertaining.

    Parent
    It's good, not great but good (none / 0) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 08:59:24 AM EST
    It is a good snow day movie, which I don't get anymore....no more snow days.  I will probably buy it and keep it around like I did Coraline because it is a good story to have around for family and children.  It is a charming tale about the human condition.  You won't escape the human condition like Avatar did for many, because it honors it.  All the mechanical gadgetry is wonderful.  I personally thought the slapstick was pretty mellow.  Sacha Baron Cohen (Ali G, Bruno, and Borat) is the station inspector and his doberman is Maximilian, they provided most of the slapstick and they were my favorite characters.

    Parent
    Oculus, I've created a saying (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by observed on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 09:09:05 PM EST
    about my work. When it's a bad day or week, I say " I'm having a Bend in the River" day.
    That's a great book, btw, but I hope it's not the manual!

    Parent
    Today's a bit nippy (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by observed on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 09:22:33 PM EST
    It's -13F with a slight breeze.

    Parent
    Is their a Thanksgiving tradition in KZ? (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 09:27:35 PM EST


    Parent
    Not at all. (none / 0) (#32)
    by observed on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 09:30:22 PM EST
    I'd be thankful the nuclear testing is over.
    Next month marks 20 years of independence by the way.
    Lots of teenage boys named Nursultan around here.

    Parent
    My bad: -15, not -13. (none / 0) (#31)
    by observed on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 09:29:09 PM EST
    We're getting into personal record territory here.
    Actually I like this kind of weather, and I always thought I would. I'm not positive if I'd enjoy DOING something outside, but its' nice for short walks.

    Parent
    "The Celts" (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 02:57:51 PM EST
    by Gerhard Herm.

    And if it will make some of my TL buds happy, it is believed that the Celts practiced cannibalism.

    ;-)

    And "Foundation's Edge" by Asimov.

    From the distant past to the distant future.

    Parent

    Chocolate Pecan Pie (none / 0) (#71)
    by vicndabx on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 06:39:58 PM EST
    Saw your Thanksgiving menu and hoping you'd be willing to share the recipe?  The wife and I have a bit of a sweet tooth.  While I could google a recipe or search food network, you seem to be the resident Julia Childs :-)

    Parent
    The Alabama immigration Law (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by NYShooter on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 09:15:56 PM EST
    is turning out to be a disaster.

    Thousands of immigrants have left Alabama due to HB56, leaving in their wake hundreds of businesses with lots of work to be done, and no employees to do it. As "Bloomberg Business Week" quotes, "Hundreds of business owners are staring at uncleaned fish, unmade beds, and unpicked tomatoes."  

    Business owners are furious, while politicians have gone into hibernation.

    Let me say it again, "Americans will not do this type of work." As a business owner with first hand knowledge of this dilemma I can attest to this lamentable fact.

    There's a reason why every American President during my lifetime , Republican and Democrat,  have merely paid lip service to the, heretofore non-existent problem, of "illegal immigrants." They understood, as the Republican Xenophobes do not, that the American economy would come to a screeching halt if "Sealing the Borders" ever became a reality.  

    My compromise proposal: (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by observed on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 02:40:30 AM EST
    immigrants may continue in their jobs, but they must know the 10 commandments. King James version, of course.

    Parent
    My compromise is not faith-based (none / 0) (#70)
    by Towanda on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 06:22:16 PM EST
    as mine is that anyone who can correctly place an apostrophe not only can keep their jobs but can vote -- as they clearly are well-read and informed.

    Conversely, anyone who cannot correctly place an apostrophe, no matter their country of origin, cannot vote in this country.  Nor can they run for office.  Clearly, they are not well-read nor, thusly, are they informed.

    My compromise would improve this country immensely, even if applied only to candidates for office.  Or, perhaps, especially if applied to candidates for office.

    Parent

    It would be nice if candidates (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by observed on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 08:35:32 PM EST
    could add fractions and do percentage calculations, but that might be too much to ask.

    Parent
    Ha! I like that (none / 0) (#76)
    by Towanda on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 09:01:25 PM EST
    and am amending my voter eligibility requirements.

    But the requirements for running for office will have to remain as is.  Yes, you ask too much of them, based upon who holds office now.

    Parent

    As does Wisconsin (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Towanda on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 11:54:54 AM EST
    as I read that thousands of teachers and other public-sector workers have retired and left the state -- and those darn union thugs (reality note:  many never had unions) have taken with them, of course, their retirement savings to expend elsewhere.

    Parent
    On Alabama and WI (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 03:06:13 PM EST
    You know, if things are so desperate in Alabama I just wonder what those 100,000 or so football fans were doing yesterday.

    Seriously. If this is a problem, then it can be corrected. But I don't think it really a problem. I bet we muddle through.

    As for the teachers and the other public sector workers, I don't think they retired because they were gonna have to pay a few bucks toward their benefits. But, if they did, as my bud from WI says, good riddance of people who think they are better than the average guy and gal.

    Parent

    You really are out of touch (none / 0) (#69)
    by Towanda on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 06:18:38 PM EST
    as is your buddy, with what is going on in Wisconsin.

    A few bucks?

    Toward their benefits?

    Jeesh.  Really, do your homework or hold your fire.

    Parent

    Maybe we should (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 07:15:43 PM EST
    pass a law that says pay and benefits in the public sector can be no better than in the private sector.

    That should get'em retiring in droves.

    Parent

    Or maybe we should pass a law that (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by caseyOR on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 07:26:23 PM EST
    that says pay and benefits in the private sector can be no worse than in the public sector.

    Why people continue to assert, as you do, Jim, that a race to the bottom is somehow good for the country totally escapes me. Public employees, as study after study has shown, are not overpaid  by any stretch. On the other hand, we also know that workers in the private sector lose more and more ground every year.

    How can you possibly think that is a good thing?

    Parent

    Why not? (none / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 10:04:19 PM EST
    Because private industry workers work for private companies and the government cannot mandate what they will be paid beyond a minimum wage.

    And if public employees are under paid, let them quit. Lots of people out there who would love to have a government employee job.

    WI's guv asked that the state employees contribute 5.8% to their retirement and 12.6% of the cost of their health insurance.

    And that's modest.

    Parent

    "Pay and benefits" combined? (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Yman on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 10:43:45 AM EST
    While many public employees get good benefits (i.e. teachers, cops, firefighters, military), they do so at the expense of a lower salary than what they would earn in the private sector.  If you look at private vs. public employee compensation as a whole, public employees earn a little less than their private sector counterparts.  While some lower-skill public workers earn more than their private counterparts, public employees with degrees and higher education levels earn less, and the difference grows with the amount of education.

    Parent
    The question is (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 01:17:00 PM EST
    public employees with degrees and higher education levels earn less, and the difference grows with the amount of education.

    What do they do that would make their "job" worth the same, or more?

    BTW - I have seen studies on both sides. I don't believe any of the ones I have seen.

    Ideally, we would compare workers performing similar
    work in the public sector with the private sector, but this
    is not always possible. There are too many critical occupations in the public sector, for example, police, fire, and
    corrections, without appropriate private-sector analogs.
    Even private and public teaching is significantly different.
    Public schools accept all students, while private schools
    are sometimes highly selective and may exclude or remove
    any poor performers, special needs, or disruptive students.

    They could always control for these by lifting them out.

    BTW - What are those great benefits that the military get??

    Parent

    I have no idea ... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Yman on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 01:47:10 PM EST
    ... what you mean by that "question", although I do find it funny that you dismiss peer-reviewed studies while citing a Scott Walker op-ed piece as evidence that contributions for public healthcare/retirement plans are "modest".

    Parent
    Seems pretty simple to me. (none / 0) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 02:33:06 PM EST

    "...public employees with degrees and higher education levels earn less, and the difference grows with the amount of education."

    What do they do that would make their "job" worth the same, or more?

    Uh, and peer reviewed???

    Look, again. The article says they can't do accurate studies because there are no policemen jobs as a "civilian."

    As for the Wall Street Journal article, was he lying?  (Citation needed.)

    Parent

    "Lying" - pfffttttt .... (none / 0) (#93)
    by Yman on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 03:02:33 PM EST
    No - Walker wasn't "lying", because he was merely stating his opinion (hence the term "op-ed") on the issue.  Walker reached his conclusion (that public employees are compensated better than private employees) not by reviewing and citing actual data, but by asking his brother.  His brother (a banquet manager and bartender) thinks public employees have it good compared to him and his wife (a department store worker), so it must be so.  Yeah, I know ...

    ... funny stuff.

    No - Walker wasn't "lying" - he was just making gratuitous assertions based on nothing more than his brother's opinion.  "Lying" would be saying something like, "The article says they can't do accurate studies because there are no policemen jobs as a "civilian", when in reality, the article does not say that:

    Ideally, we would compare workers performing similar work in the public sector with the private sector, but this is not always possible. There are too many critical occupations in the public sector, for example, police, fire, and corrections, without appropriate private-sector analogs.  Even private and public teaching is significantly different.  Public schools accept all students, while private schools are sometimes highly selective and may exclude or remove any poor performers, special needs, or disruptive students.  Consequently, comparing workers of similar "human capital" or personal productive characteristics and labor market skills is considered the best alternative, and well accepted by labor economists.

    BTW - I was speaking of your penchant for dismissing peer reviewed research in general when you don't like the conclusions and substituting op-ed pieces as "evidence", although Keefe has published several studies on the subject.  Although I have to admit - the fact that you claim to have read conflicting studies about this issue got me curious.  I'd love to see some studies that reach the opposite conclusion.  Why not just post a few of those links?  Don't strain yourself - start off slow.  Maybe just post one so people don't think you're just making stuff up ...

    ... again.

    Parent

    You are trying to reframe (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 06:35:17 PM EST
    Which is a specialty of yours.

    The point re what Walker wrote was this:

    WI's guv asked that the state employees contribute 5.8% to their retirement and 12.6% of the cost of their health insurance.

    And yes. The article said they couldn't compare.

    No - Walker wasn't "lying" - he was just making gratuitous assertions based on nothing more than his brother's opinion.  "Lying" would be saying something like, "The article says they can't do accurate studies because there are no policemen jobs as a "civilian", when in reality, the article does not say that:

    "Ideally, we would compare workers performing similar work in the public sector with the private sector, but this is not always possible. There are too many critical occupations in the public sector, for example, police,"



    Parent
    No, it didn't say ... (none / 0) (#101)
    by Yman on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 08:44:22 PM EST
    ... what you claim it said.  The author never said "they couldn't compare" public sector jobs to private sector jobs.  If the author made that conclusion, he could never have published the study.  In fact, the author was explaining the methodology used for the study, and indicated the method used ("human capital") was chosen because some public sector jobs do not have a private sector counterpart hence the reason he chose the "human capital" method of comparison.

    Ideally, we would compare workers performing similar work in the public sector with the private sector, but this is not always possible. There are too many critical occupations in the public sector, for example, police, fire, and corrections, without appropriate private-sector analogs...

    ... Consequently, comparing workers of similar "human capital" or personal productive characteristics and labor market skills is considered the best alternative, and well accepted by labor economists.

    IOW - you can compare them, and this is how he did it.

    Not a very difficult concept.

    BTW - I'm not reframing anything - you linked to Walker's op-ed to support your premise that these contributions were "modest".  My point is - compared to what?  Walker's only evidence that they are "modest" is his brother, who works in the private sector in a non-professional job.  In general, teachers accept lower salaries for higher benefits than their private sector counterparts (who are not bartenders/banquet managers/department store workers, as are Walker's anecdotal examples).

    Parent

    BTW - Read my post again (none / 0) (#87)
    by Yman on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 01:54:21 PM EST
    I'm trying to figure out where I said that the military gets "great" benefits.  Do you mean the part where I noted that they, like other public employees (teachers, firefighters, etc.) get good benefits when compared to private sector workers because they earn less salary?  Are you seriously suggesting they don't get good benefits?

    Funny how those benefits suddenly don't seem "great" when you've been there, huh, Jim?

    Heh.

    Parent

    Actually, the commissary and navy excahnge (none / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 02:27:55 PM EST
    weren't all that "great" or even "good."

    Especially if you think that they are supposed to compensate for being woefully underpaid for engaging in a profession that says up front that you may well get killed.

    Of course I'm sure you spent years in the military and know all about it.

    Perhaps if we had "doctors" to write us "excuses" for being absent from work, as the WI demonstrators had, we could have demonstrated for higher pay and better benefits.

    Parent

    Why, Jim .... you missed a whole LOT ... (none / 0) (#94)
    by Yman on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 03:34:28 PM EST
    ... of very important benefits in your squirming to avoid answering the simple question.  I'm sure you didn't mean to suggest that "commissary and the navy exchange" were the major advantage of military benefits when compared to the private sector.  It's okay, ... I'll help you out so you don't mislead anyone:

    Heeeeeeeeeeyyyy, ... I may have been wrong about the military.  As it turns out, they don't get greater benefits in return for a lower salary (as do other public employees).  They actually get higher salaries than their civilian counterparts, and better benefits.


    The 2008 Quadrennial Review of Military Compensation found that salarywise, service members made more money than 80 percent of comparable civilians, up from 70 percent in the 2004 review. A Defense Department-sponsored study by CNA Corp. in 2006 found enlisted service members made an average $4,700 more than the civilians the company included in the study, and that on average officers made $11,500 more.

    When CNA added the value of health insurance, retirement benefits and tax breaks to their calculation, the differences between average military and civilian pay rose to $13,360 for enlisted personnel and $24,870 for officers.

    The Tenth Quadrennial Review of Military Compensation

    That's not even including all of the other benefits that you ... well, ..... let's just say, "overlooked":

    Free technical training
    Housing allowance
    College tuition assistance
    Free healthcare and dental (just like those rascally teachers, minus the free dental care)
    Retirement benefits far better than civilians
    VA loans for homes/education
    Great TSP plan on top of retirement plan
    Free/low-cost air travel all over the world
    30 days paid vacation
    PX/Commissary privleges (just for you)

    Etc., etc., etc. ...

    Heeeeeeeyyyyy, you should let Gov. Walker and his brother know about this racket.  All these government employees living high-on-the-hog while Scott Walker's poor brother gets none of these benefits.

    Funny how the grass isn't as green as you tell everyone after you've been on the other side of the fence, huh, Jim?

    Heh, heh, heh ...

    Parent

    Well, why didn't you join up?? (none / 0) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 06:46:49 PM EST
    Free technical training - Just so you can do the job.

    Housing allowance - Only if you live off base.

    College tuition assistance - Collectible only if you live to collect it.

    Free healthcare and dental (just like those rascally teachers, minus the free dental care)- Especially needed if you get wounded. Or are you saying teachers can expect to get shot at??

    Retirement benefits far better than civilians - Again only if you live to collect them. And, they
    don't qualify after 5 years. You gotta do 20 to collect.

    VA loans for homes/education - Again only if you live to collect them.

    Great TSP plan on top of retirement plan - ???

    Free/low-cost air travel all over the world - Some of it may require parachuting into the country and first class is not available.

    30 days paid vacation - If not in a hospital or dead.

    PX/Commissary privleges (just for you) - Have shopped in both and Walmart is better... and doesn't require you enlist.

    Thanks for displaying your lack of knowledge.

    Parent

    "Only if you live ..." (none / 0) (#100)
    by Yman on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 08:30:54 PM EST
    ... to collect them".

    Wait ... what?!?  You mean you only get free health care if you're alive?!?  You don't get college tuition if you're dead?!?  You can't get a VA loan for a grave?!?

    That's the best answer you can come up with?!?  Nothing to support your claim that the military is "woefully underpaid" compared to private sector workers?  Nothing to dispute my claim that military benefits are greater than private sector benefits?

    Hey, thanks for that information, Captain Obvious.

    BTW - What "lack of knowledge", Jim?  Every single thing I posted was correct - and I even managed to teach you something.  The military has a TSP plan (like a 401K) on top of their retirement plan - been that way for 25 years.

    "No charge for the education" ... ;-)

    BBTW - You haven't the slightest idea of my military service, Jim, much as you keep fantasizing otherwise.  But since you're complaining about the benefits of public workers, why didn't you sign up to become a teacher instead?  I mean, the benefits aren't nearly as good as the military benefits, ... but they're not bad.

    Parent

    Yes, being killed is generally (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 01:04:20 PM EST
    regarded as something most people would want a lot of money for.

    That's the best answer you can come up with?!?  Nothing to support your claim that the military is "woefully underpaid" compared to private sector workers?  Nothing to dispute my claim that military benefits are greater than private sector benefits?

    And lack of knowledge?

    There us a difference between "information" and "knowledge." Too bad you don't understand that.

    Parent

    Actually, "being killed" ... (none / 0) (#103)
    by Yman on Tue Nov 29, 2011 at 01:34:33 PM EST
    Actually, being killed is generally regarded as something most people would want a lot of money for.

    ... is generally regarded as something most people would say there's not-enough-money-in-the-world for, not something they would want a lot of money for.  Well, ...

    ... except for a few, not-so-bright people.

    But I'm happy to enhance your knowledge by providing you with basic information that anyone commenting on this subject should already know.  Maybe it is better that you didn't go into teaching.

    ;-)

    BTW - I provide you with proof that military pay and benefits are better, and you still have nothing to support your claim that the military is "woefully underpaid" compared to private sector workers, or dispute my claim that military benefits are greater than private sector benefits?  Ah, well ...

    ... I guess it is harder to come up with evidence when you're just pulling it out of your @ss.

    Parent

    No, Jim, that would not cause retirements (none / 0) (#77)
    by Towanda on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 09:02:58 PM EST
    and you continue to reveal your ignorance of the issues involved.  Really, do you enjoy coming here to exercise these self-humiliating exposes?

    Parent
    No Towanda (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 09:49:30 PM EST
    I understand the issues involved. I just don't believe that government employees should have unions. Neither did FDR.

    It has led to the place were we are now. Too many employees doing to little for too much in far too many situations.

    Now I'm sorry that you don't think I should have an opinion, but I do and it isn't gonna change just because some government employee threatens to retire, or quit.

    Parent

    You do not appear to understand (none / 0) (#82)
    by Towanda on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 11:21:10 AM EST
    at all that a massive number of the retirees and departees were not in unions, that Wisconsin state law did not allow many to be in unions. And your points continue to digress from the point that I made, which you clearly do not want to address.

    Parent
    Are you saying WI (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 01:10:17 PM EST
    is not a closed shop state?

    Ms. Sampson got a layoff notice because the union leadership would not accept reasonable changes to their contract. Instead, they hid behind a collective-bargaining agreement that costs the taxpayers $101,091 per year for each teacher, protects a 0% contribution for health-insurance premiums, and forces schools to hire and fire based on seniority and union rules


    Parent
    As a people (none / 0) (#50)
    by cal1942 on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 02:28:38 PM EST
    we get what we deserve.

    Parent
    Exactly, cal (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Zorba on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 02:45:12 PM EST
    Years ago, George Carlin did a riff on politicians, which said, in part:
    If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain't going to do any good; you're just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it's not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here... like, the public.

    See the rest here.

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 03:00:12 PM EST
    But term limits would give us a chance to shuffle the deck and re deal more often.

    Parent
    Maybe, maybe not, jim (none / 0) (#61)
    by Zorba on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 03:30:34 PM EST
    But I have to agree that term limits do seem very inviting.  We might get another crop of bozos, but at least they wouldn't be such entrenched, fossilized bozos.

    Parent
    Exactly (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 03:59:46 PM EST
    But the SC has said that's a no-no on the Fed level. We'll need a Constitutional Amendment.

    Parent
    Indeed, as we did (none / 0) (#66)
    by Zorba on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 04:28:14 PM EST
    when term limits for the Presidency were imposed.  I just don't see a Constitutional Amendment imposing term limits on Congress passing in the near future, unfortunately.  I seem to remember reading in the past about polls that continually show that Congress as a whole has very, very low ratings, but people seemed to like their own Congress-critters enough to approve of and keep voting for them.  I guess the feeling is "I like our guy/gal okay, but your reps are all idiots."  Who the heck knows?   ;-)

    Parent
    All term limits accomplish (none / 0) (#96)
    by cal1942 on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 04:31:45 PM EST
    is surrendering more power to lobbyists and insuring that the party with the most money (read GOP) will more often than not be able to finance a new product in the market.

    For voters, term limits encourage laziness.  No need to scrutinize a legislator's record he'll exit shortly.

    For legislators term limits encourage resume enhancement, sucking up to monied interests for a jackpot job.

    "reshuffling the deck" is a Pi$$ poor way to run a government.

    Parent

    I used to like the idea of term limits (none / 0) (#99)
    by shoephone on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 07:12:20 PM EST
    but then I realized that the stupidest people on the planet should not be alowed to run for the highest legislative positions in the first place. There are no requirements at all in running for either the House or Senate, other than being U.S. citizens of 25 or 30 years of age, respectively. The joke's on us. All candidates for national office should be made to take a civics test, at the least. That would winnow out an entire pack of Republicans who don't know the U.S. Constitution from a Walmart sales receipt. Somehow, the presidential race is reserved from some of the stupidest people ever. Hence, the passenger-candidates riding on the current GOP Clown Car -- half of whom shouldn't be permitted anywhere near a debate stage.

    Parent
    Soooo (none / 0) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 11:20:07 AM EST
    We have had enough of the ISI doing this.

    And we do this.  Knowing our supply routes would be finished.  But that's okay because we have been fishing for new routes to re-supply and Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are more than willing, Russia would give us space to stage they say, China would too, something tells me deals have already been made.

    I got one big big big question though, exactly when as Commander in Chief of U.S. forces would Herman Cain finally be concerned that he didn't know who the leader of Uzbekistan is and he never gave a $hit?

    Sorry (none / 0) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 01:19:16 PM EST
    My first link was supposed to be this one.

    The BBC is running the first part of a two part special tonight too about the Pakistan Secret Service training and aiding of Taliban they send into Afghanistan too.  I have very specific media coordination to clearly outline Pakistan's betrayal, I have two Pakistan military "check points" destroyed in precision hits.  I'm not seeing the NATO "mistake".  In the end, I'm certain they can neither confirm nor deny an error.

    Parent

    We are getting the boot (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 01:31:36 PM EST
    Pakistan has now given us 15 days to vacate their Shamsi Air Base.  

    Parent
    And I'm reading that we don't care (none / 0) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 01:39:45 PM EST
    because we have already established its replacement in Afghanistan and we can run the drones also off of ships now.  So we don't care.  I'm not seeing where we had anything to risk anymore in losing Pakistan's love.  Looks like a pretty planned and organized divorce on our part to me.

    Parent
    Juan Cole says we have built (none / 0) (#13)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 01:46:24 PM EST
    505 (!!!) bases in Afghanistan, all of which will be turned over to Afghanistan when we depart.  

    Parent
    Iraq, not Afghanistan! (none / 0) (#20)
    by Erehwon on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 05:17:08 PM EST
    He wrote:

    Number of  bases US built in Iraq: 505
    Number to be turned over to Iraq: 505

    Parent

    Thanks. (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 06:53:08 PM EST


    Parent
    You are welcome. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Erehwon on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 09:58:44 PM EST
    Now I didn't think Iraq was big enough to have so many bases, but that's a lot of money being transferred. It sure would be nice to see an accounting of who got what, but ... a person can only dream! :-(

    Parent
    I suppose Iraq's borders (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 10:00:35 PM EST
    will be "safer" than ours.  

    Parent
    +300????? (none / 0) (#2)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 11:28:06 AM EST


    3-1 (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 11:30:12 AM EST
    Bet 1 unit to win 3.

    I think Ohio State wins or gets blown out.

    I think the win bet is the better proposition here.

    Parent

    MIchigan ahead so far. And: (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 11:53:22 AM EST
    Ohio bans hateful anti-Michigan license plates!

    Parent
    Michigan 40, OSU 34. Ann Arbor (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 02:38:23 PM EST
    must be in a huge celebration right now.  

    Parent
    Oops. (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 12:47:58 PM EST


    Parent
    Ohio is mean as snake where Michigan (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 01:20:40 PM EST
    is concerned.  Is Michigan that hateful about Ohio?

    Parent
    I like to think it's more friendly banter (none / 0) (#11)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 01:39:31 PM EST
    from Michigan fans.  But I haven't lived in MI since 1972.  

    Parent
    Since '72 (none / 0) (#52)
    by cal1942 on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 02:50:49 PM EST
    Michigan followers have become insufferable.

    In '72 they were still gratified by their recent successes.

    Now they feel they're entitled.

    Parent

    Long dry spells. Plus those malicious (none / 0) (#80)
    by oculus on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 10:33:43 PM EST
    Buckeyee. Fans.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#95)
    by cal1942 on Mon Nov 28, 2011 at 04:09:55 PM EST
    The Richrod 'era' was instructive.

    Michigan fans reacted this way:

    • 'this shouldn't happen to us, we're Michigan, we should always be on top'

    • 'everyone should feel sorry for us'

    I heard this from both sons-in-law and from many other Michigan people who automatically thought everyone would automatically enter their sobbing circle.

    But I guess the real question was whether or not OSU faithful are more vicious than M faithful.

    As a Michigan State loyalist (who likes nothing more than beating the crap out of Michigan and revels in each Michigan loss) and neutral observer I'd have to say that OSU followers are decidedly more vicious.  Not all of course but many of them (OSU) seem unhinged in their vile hatred.  Both OSU and M followers are (from a neutral observer) a little bit tainted regarding the game they regard as the "greatest rivalry."  That self granted label reveals something about the arrogance of both. I'm sure Alabama and Auburn followers would disagree as would Florida and Florida State, Georgia and Georgia Tech, Purdue and Indiana and many others at you name it U.

    It's NOT the "greatest rivalry."  Every U's special rivalry is the greatest rivalry.

    Parent

    I also bet (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 11:30:45 AM EST
    that Connecticut and Clemson will win outright.

    Parent
    Who was the very well known (none / 0) (#19)
    by brodie on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 04:57:08 PM EST
    person not associated with Hollywood who offered the following movie review of what classic film not long after its initial release?

    "How in the hell can that creepy guy be a hero to you?  All I needed was to see ten minutes of that guy ...moving like an elephant in that woman's bed ... to know that I wouldn't trust him for one minute with anything that really mattered to me.  And if that's an example of what love seems like to your generation, then we're all in big trouble.  All they did was to scream and yell at each other before getting to the altar."

    No fair googling, though this one might not be googlable.

    (ellipses above for 2 subclauses that tend to give away the name of the film; available as later clues)

    Additional clue re the movie classic: (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by brodie on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 08:29:48 AM EST
    "All I needed was to see ten minutes of that guy, floating like a big lump in a pool, moving like an elephant in that woman's bed, ... "

    Addl clue re the reviewer:  Famous US pol.


    Parent

    Sadly (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by CoralGables on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 09:58:01 AM EST
    googlable has yet to be included in Merriam-Webster

    Parent
    Googling only brings up your comment. (none / 0) (#25)
    by oculus on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 08:22:54 PM EST


    Parent
    One more movie clue -- (none / 0) (#45)
    by brodie on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 10:30:00 AM EST
    "How in the hell can that creepy guy be a hero to you?  All I needed was to see ten minutes of that guy, floating like a big lump in a pool, moving like an elephant in that woman's bed, riding up and down the California coast polluting the atmosphere, to know that I wouldn't trust him for one minute with anything that really mattered to me.  And if that's an example of what love seems like to your generation, then we're all in big trouble.  All they did was to scream and yell at each other before getting to the altar."

    Movie review of this classic film given by then recently retired major American pol not long after movie first released.

    Parent

    Gees, that's a tough one.... (none / 0) (#48)
    by ruffian on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 12:45:54 PM EST
    taking into account that it seems like I would not agree with any of his assessments...

    The Graduate? and Lyndon Johnson?

    Parent

    Yep on both (none / 0) (#60)
    by brodie on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 03:25:04 PM EST
    The final sentence of his review absolutely by itself would have given away the movie:

    "Then after it was over they sat on the bus like dumb mutes with absolutely nothing to say to one another."

    Review quoted by interviewer Doris Kearns at the Johnson Ranch following a private screening (Kearns, Lyndon Johnson and the American Dream, p. 332).

    Parent

    I was almost thrown by the lack of salty (none / 0) (#67)
    by ruffian on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 04:41:04 PM EST
    language! I guess he was on good behavior with DKG.

    I've had one of the same complaints as him on more recent viewings of the movie - Ben and Elaine seem to do more fighting than anything else. Not sure I buy them running away together. I think she leaves him pretty soon after the bus ride - he is just her way out of that situation.

    I heard an interesting anecdote about that last scene. It is said that Dustin Hoffman forgot the line he was supposed to say, and so Katherine Ross keeps looking at him expectantly and he does not know what to say. Nichols liked that take better than the scene with dialogue.

    Parent

    I think Kearns probably cleaned up (none / 0) (#68)
    by brodie on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 06:12:16 PM EST
    a lot of Lyndon's grammar and syntax as opposed to salty language though I'm working from memory there (the movie review I vividly recalled and just quickly looked up in the book's nifty index).

    And I'd probably agree in a narrow sense that LBJ sought to be on his best behavior in that he wanted to impress this hand picked "Harvard" that he was a thoughtful president even with his lowly educational background.  But he would often slip up and be himself, and then got annoyed with her when she would accurately quote him using colorful language.  He preferred she present him with a more polished upscale intellect.

    And further re "on his best behavior":  DK revealed in the book that Johnson often would climb into bed with her in the middle of the night in her room at the ranch.  She claims it was all innocent and that he was like a little kid scared by nightmares seeking the reassurance of a mother figure.  But his well deserved rep for aggressive womanizing and the fact that DK then was an attractive twenty something single woman ... well you decide.

    Btw I like that anecdote about the ending of the movie and it sounds like the sort of on the spot creative adjustment Nichols would have eagerly embraced.

    Parent

    Thank you! What a picture. (none / 0) (#72)
    by ruffian on Sun Nov 27, 2011 at 07:10:48 PM EST
    LBJ sneaking into her room - that's really something.

    I need to read at least one of the many books about him. That sounds like an interesting one!

    Parent

    Went to the paint store and the grocery store (none / 0) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 26, 2011 at 05:44:46 PM EST
    It was really really dead out there at all stores in between.  My husband thought everyone had gone to Dothan to the mall maybe.

    Saturday College Football Open Thread | 101 comments (101 topical)

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