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March 2010: Gabrielle Giffords Discussing Violent Rhetoric

Via rikyrah:

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    I can't help but cringe (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 07:56:16 AM EST
    at the signature bipartisan balance she does at the end. But it is chilling that she remarked on the Palin crosshairs.

    Well, Giffords was one of the targets; (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 09:25:29 AM EST
    and I do not believe for a second that Sarah Palin regrets anything about this weekend's incident other than her having to talk about some other female political figure as if she cared.

    Parent
    Agreed (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:11:03 AM EST
    The guy (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 08:44:26 AM EST
    ...may have been planning this since at least 2007:

    Link

    Blaming the gun lobby and Sarah Palin for a guy who's likely been planning an assasination since 2007?  Bad strategy, IMHO, since I'm not sure who Democrats are more afraid of -- Sarah Palin or the gun lobby.  Either way, both of these factions will be incited by blaming them, and THEY, not the Democrats, will win in the end.  They always do.

    Totally agree. This is not the fault of (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 08:50:15 AM EST
    Palin/Limbaugh/etc. as much as I detest their vitriol.  I also think it will backfire if the left tries to blame them for it, but who knows.  If they tried, it would hardly be the first time someone tried to use a terrible tragedy for political gain - see 9/11.

    Parent
    I think that that is ridiculous. (5.00 / 8) (#11)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 09:32:15 AM EST
    There are bona fide crazy people in major leadership positions in the Republican Party who are "connecting" with the crazies amongst the citizenry.  People like John Kyl appear on all the shows claiming that this shooter was just crazy while he spent his summer supporting Sharon Angle who was going around touting her "Second Amendment Solution".  Sorry - these people bear some responsibility in this situation.  Our political differences are supposed to be worked out at the ballot box and on the floors of legislatures across the country.  Not at impromptu shooting ranges in shopping malls.  For a politician to suggest that there be "Second Amendment Solutions" applied to our political process is just going too far - and for an entire Party to continue to back a candidate like that - is their prerogative - and, therefore, their responsibility when someone acts on their rhetoric.

    Parent
    Yup - I have had the dialogue in this thread (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by ruffian on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 09:46:14 AM EST
    internally in my head since I heard about this, and what I come down to is that Kyl, Angle, Palin, and the like play to the irrational and violent in their supporters. It would be no accident if someone truly disturbed latched on to their rhetoric.

    Parent
    Krugman asks in his column today (5.00 / 9) (#14)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:07:22 AM EST
    if people are surprised and you know what?  I'm not - not after the past two years of steady, graphically violent rhetoric against liberals, Democrats, "socialists" and public servants that the Republican Party and their acolytes have been spewing forth.

    What have we racked up in the past couple of years?  A shooting spree at a military base in Alabama; a plane flown into a federal building in Arizona; vandalism at Congressional offices across the country; this shooting spree at a political event that took a freakn' nine year old girl's life - and I think there's more that I am forgetting.  Meanwhile, the Republican political strategy for the 2010 election was to support candidates across the country many of whom were calling for violent overthrow of government - and they claim they have no part in any of this rising violence?  Sorry - I'm not cutting them a break.

    The GOP knows that the powder keg is ready to blow and they've been tossing matches towards it for months if not years now.  NOT OK.

    Parent

    The only thing that surprised me was (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:16:34 AM EST
    that someone managed to get off 31 rounds in the middle of a Democrats political event.  It was double the number of bullets that I anticipated someone was going to be able to fire in such a situation, once someone finally fully crossed the line and went from marching around outside with their guns to using them.

    Parent
    Or dropping them. One fellow's gun (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:48:54 AM EST
    fell to the floor during a protest to Rep. Giffords' vote in favor of HCR.  

    Parent
    Hadn't seen that number (none / 0) (#37)
    by Yman on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:50:06 AM EST
    Do you know if he was stopped while reloading?  I saw an earlier report indicating he had an extended magazine that held 31 rounds.  With an extra round in the chamber, that would be consistent with emptying that magazine.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#42)
    by smott on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:58:06 AM EST
    He was in the process of re-loading when a 61-yr old woman he'd just wounded tried to wrestle the gun from him. He had gotten the 2nd mag in or nearly but the spring malfunctioned allowing 2 other men to tackle him...
    Assuming reports are correct....

    Parent
    Wow - good for her (none / 0) (#47)
    by Yman on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:02:33 AM EST
    ... and them.

    Parent
    And that enormous 31 clip (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by smott on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:29:40 AM EST
    Was illegal under the Clinton ban, till Repubs caved to the NRA....

    From Salon -

    The high-capacity magazine of the semiautomatic pistol used in the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and more than a dozen other people on Saturday would have been illegal to manufacture and difficult to purchase under the Clinton-era assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004.

    According to police and media reports, the alleged shooter, Jared Lee Loughner, legally purchased a semiautomatic Glock 19 with a high-capacity magazine in November at a gun store in Tucson. Under the assault weapons ban, it was illegal to manufacture or sell new high-capacity magazines, defined as those that hold more than 10 rounds. The magazines used by Loughner had 31 rounds each, according to police.

    If Loughner had been using a traditional magazine, "it would have drastically reduced the number of shots he got off before he had to pause, unload and reload -- and he could have been stopped," Daniel Vice, senior attorney at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, tells Salon

    Parent

    I read last night on line Loughner (none / 0) (#66)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:32:46 AM EST
    tried to buy a clip at a Walmart but was refused (apparently due to concerns about his mental state) but another Walmart did sell a clip to him.

    Parent
    As I stated above (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:08:28 AM EST
    the Democratic party has had leaders that have said they wished Palin was on the Alaskan plane that crashed and killed everyone on board including Senator Stevens.  Another said that "a dead Palin would be more dangerous than a live one" and "if she was dead, she couldn't commit any more gaffes."  Dylan Ratigan on MSNBC spoke approvingly of violent revolution: "are things in our country so bad that it might actually be time for a revolution?  The answer is obviously yes.  The only question is how to do it."

    We can argue that the right does it more than the left or what the right does is more pernicious than the left, but it has gone go both ways to some extent and the right will have plenty of rebuttals if you go down this path.

    Parent

    Dylan Ratigan is a liberal? (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:32:51 AM EST
    No, I don't think so.  And, while I can't support anyone hoping for someone dying under any circumstances, I think that the Palin examples you cite are a far cry from posting crosshairs on particular districts or suggesting that a "Second Amendment Solution" be used as a means to political victory in our democracy.

    Palin talking about "reloading" is a LOADED statement.

    But the reality is that this is not about isolated idiotic commentary from two-bit forgettable politicians - this is about a Republican communications strategy - one that they fully embraced in this campaign cycle - and I believe that they bear responsibility for throwing matches at the gasoline - they knew exactly what they were doing - a people like Palin who are calculating, mean and basically pretty insane, too probably aren't too worried about the consequences of their political games - even when people get shot.  We are all - regardless of political affiliation - just fodder to them - pawns in their political games.

    The Republican Party that I knew and never really loved, has completely lost its soul - I hope that the Republicans that I know and do love will start to take back their party.  They've got a lot of work to do, but our democracy depends on their commitment and persistence at this juncture.

    Parent

    Everything you wrote above until the last (none / 0) (#30)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:47:15 AM EST
    paragraph is just the biased lens you are looking through.  If Loughner is a far left 9/11 conspiracy theorist as being reported (we do not know this yet), then anything said by Democrates (even two-bit ones whose statements were repeated and reported nationally), MSNBC, and the Daily KOS would have much more influence with this guy than anything coming from Palin.

    I completely agree with the well written/thoughful last paragraph.  But that does not give us the right to blame innocent people for murder.

    Parent

    Cite one Democratic candidate (5.00 / 5) (#73)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:44:49 AM EST
    who in the 2010 election cycle both suggested violence as a political strategy and was embraced by the party as a whole and I will re-think my position.  But as you cannot do so, I do not believe that it is fair to say that this is a problem shared by both parties.  And, as I said before, I believe that the Republican Party bears responsibility for ginning up the hatred and using terms like "reload" - and saying things like people should "resort to the bullet box".

    I really don't care what a person's party affiliation is when they go down that road, unless, as in this case, the person's party seems to approve of their statements - then I believe the party has to share in the responsibility for the consequences of their rhetoric.

    I believe that you, I and everyone else in this country has the right to say whatever they want, but we also assume responsibility for the responses to our statements when we make them - whether we like it or not - we are a part of the story if we provoke.

    Parent

    well said (n/t) (none / 0) (#81)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:54:37 AM EST
    We are on a website from a defense attorney (none / 0) (#84)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:07:12 PM EST
    promoting such concepts as innocent until proven guilty.  You said

    we also assume responsibility for the responses to our statements when we make them - whether we like it or not - we are a part of the story if we provoke

    You have no idea what had influence on this guy.  From what we are hearing, he is a far left wing nut who was a 9/11 conspiracy theorist that has been planning this since 2007.  If that is the case, then you are wrong to point the finger at those you are blaming.  Before we accuse first Loughner, second that other people (i.e. Palin) are responsible, then you need to back it up.  I do not think they are responsible at all, and you have no proof they are.  We will see as we learn more.

    Parent

    Convenient compartmentalization (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:26:22 PM EST
    on your part.  I don't have to back anything up beyond what I've already put forth in this discussion.  If you really require statistics with respect to the public response to this growing trend towards public officials and party leaders using violent rhetoric, you can go to the Southern Poverty Law Center's website to see the growth in hate groups and violence that has taken hold.  We've already got plenty of evidence of prominent Republican Party players engaging in this sort starkly threatening including John Boehner telling Congress Members that they would be "dead men" if they voted for the healthcare bill - a bill that I did not and still do not support, by the way.

    Public grounds are hallowed land for me.  I grew up in the political realm and have spent plenty of time with people of the opposing party to my own - but we never threatened each other's lives or suggested that someone else take each other's lives.  NEVER.  That would have been viewed as wholly undemocratic until recently.  I am absolutely certain that the GOP Senator for whom I worked one summer would NEVER have engaged in such rhetoric.  The Republican Party of the early 21st Century has gone off the rails and they are doing damage to our society, culture and our government.  You can pretend that all this stuff they offer up about reloading and Second Amendment remedies is just harmless fluff, but that doesn't make it so.  Ignore it at your own peril.  Whacking this beehive may seem like a cool trick for the GOP to pull right now, but if they continue without pulling WAY back, none of us will be able to control it - and worst - ALL of us will be at risk.  Playing to crazy people will always get everyone into trouble.

    And as for this crazy kid who allegedly perpetrated this attack, he's almost irrelevant.  He's a pawn in a political game.  He's screwed up and crazy enough to act on screwed up and crazy rhetoric put forth by people WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

    That sheriff had it right and you know why he's probably thought a lot about this issue?  Because he's on the front lines everyday trying to clean up the messes that these careless and reckless political operatives are creating with their systematic rollout of this violent rhetoric.

    Parent

    My goodness. The fact that you said this (none / 0) (#131)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:39:04 PM EST
    And as for this crazy kid who allegedly perpetrated this attack, he's almost irrelevant.  He's a pawn in a political game.

    shows you far off the deep end you are going.

    Parent

    I'm not going off of any deep end. (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:51:02 PM EST
    I am a witness to people in the process of taking us all over a cliff and I am objecting to that course.

    SIX people are DEAD.  A nine year old girl is counted amongst the bodies, no less.  14 are wounded.  REAL PEOPLE have been hurt.

    Even if we find out down the road that this crazy kid got his dates wrong and was there to attack people rolling out a new cereal at that Safeway, I still believe that the political leaders who promote violent imagery and actions through their rhetoric will bear responsibility for that kind of act - and here's why:  Because they are leaders - they are people that the public looks to - they are people that some nine year olds look up to - and they should set an example for the rest of us that is far, far above this bullying and threatening rhetoric that the GOP of this era has tolerated, supported and apparently condoned.

    Parent

    You know, it is really hypocritical to condemn (1.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:01:53 PM EST
    hate speech when you are accusing innocent people of being complicite in murder and then stating the actual murderer is irrelevant and a pawn in their political game without any proof at all.  That is about as hateful as anything I have read.  

    Parent
    I have not accused any innocent (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:08:01 PM EST
    people of any such thing.

    I have stated that the facts show that the GOP has taken a strategy of hate-mongering and violence inciting rhetoric to such a point that I believe that they bear some responsibility in this tragedy.  These people are not "innocent".  They are deliberate, clever and determined in their strategy.

    Parent

    Then what did you mean by the (none / 0) (#150)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:15:52 PM EST
    statement that Loughner is essentially irrelevant and a pawn in their political game?  And by saying "they bear responsibility", you are not proclaiming they are complicite in a shooting that caused many people their death including a 9 year old girl, then what exactly are you accusing them of?  How are they "relevant" to this then?

    Parent
    When you yell fire in a crowded (5.00 / 2) (#155)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:26:57 PM EST
    movie theater - even if you were only kidding - if people take you seriously and start trampling each other to death - you bear responsibility for the consequences.

    Didn't you learn any of this basic stuff about the responsibility that goes along with free speech in elementary school like the rest of us did?

    Parent

    Yelling fire in a crowded theater?? Really? Geez. (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:32:42 PM EST
    Really weak.  That analogy is not even close to what we are discussing.

    Parent
    I guess the answer to my (none / 0) (#163)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:41:35 PM EST
    question is "No", then.

    Parent
    There is a montrous difference between (none / 0) (#166)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:47:56 PM EST
    your analogy and suggesting that people should be held responsible for the actions of others, especially when it comes down to the influence they supposedly have on those they've never met.  

    As Jane Hamsher wrote very recently,

    It's the kind of Lieberman-esque thinking that brought us the culture wars, the scapegoating of video games and a decade's worth of Ice-T demonization.  As someone who did not emerge unscathed from that ignoble period in our history, I instinctively feel that the people who trade in those kinds of  arguments are demagogues and hustlers.

    If you think that is the same thing as yelling fire in a crowded theater where people run fearing for their life, you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

    Parent

    Um, you keep saying stuff that (none / 0) (#176)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:10:44 PM EST
    you think I have said, but that I have not said.

    You use the term "held responsible".  I have consistently used the term "bear some responsibility".  May seem to be a difference without a distinction to you, but all I've called for is an acknowledgement that the over-the-top rhetoric is probably il-conceived and that they dial it WAY back as we go forward.  I am not sure why that's so objectionable to you.

    The fact is that the strongest and most honorable statement about the out of control rhetoric from the GOP side, thus far, came from an anonymous Republican Senator.  Clearly, a person too afraid of party leadership to allow anyone to attach a name to that quotation...  

    People - everyone - needs to condemn this rhetoric and delegitimize violence as a means to political ends in our society.

    Parent

    wtf are you talking about? (none / 0) (#196)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:59:09 PM EST
    What words am I putting in your mouth?  Up above, you said:

    And as for this crazy kid who allegedly perpetrated this attack, he's almost irrelevant.  He's a pawn in a political game.  

    Now you are saying:

    You use the term "held responsible".  I have consistently used the term "bear some responsibility".  May seem to be a difference without a distinction to you,

    If you are saying the GOP is so responsible Loughner (you remember him, the actual shooter)is irrelevant, then it is a distinction without a difference.

    You cannot both say that the GOP bears only some responsibility, but say they are SO responsible that Loughner is essentially irrelevant and a pawn in their scheme.  I agree with BTD's post above, rhetoric does not kill people.  The right attack from Dems that is both honest and a better political strategy is to try and use this atrocity to get some gun regulations.

    Parent

    What next---blame leftwing blog (none / 0) (#74)
    by observed on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:47:33 AM EST
    rhetoric for shootings of abortion providers??
    Get real.

    Parent
    Everything you wrote above until the last (none / 0) (#31)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:47:26 AM EST
    paragraph is just the biased lens you are looking through.  If Loughner is a far left 9/11 conspiracy theorist as being reported (we do not know this yet), then anything said by Democrates (even two-bit ones whose statements were repeated and reported nationally), MSNBC, and the Daily KOS would have much more influence with this guy than anything coming from Palin.

    I completely agree with the well written/thoughful last paragraph.  But that does not give us the right to blame innocent people for murder.

    Parent

    There is no reason (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:57:34 AM EST
    to believe that Loughner sits around reading Daily Kos all day and watching MSNBC all day and picked up the three or four random comments you selected and decided to gun down a Democratic congresswoman.  Why?  Because there is no systematic promotion of political violence by liberal outlets.  The idea that political violence is acceptable is coming from the Right...whether someone's policy views are liberal or conservative does not matter in that regard.  The Right is creating this culture (and even more callously, doing so when we have our first black President).

    Parent
    I do not know if he sits around reading (none / 0) (#77)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:49:31 AM EST
    Daily KOS all day or not...that was not my point.  

    If what people are saying that Loughner is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, do you know what that means?  Everything that everyone has said about 9/11 over the last 10 years (all media outlets, both political parties, bloggers, statements from Al Jazeera and Al Queda, two wars, etc.) had no effect on him.  Other than Rosie and maybe one small organization pushing that myth, no one and I mean NO ONE is pushing the idea that 9/11 was an inside job.  And it had no effect on him.  Do you really think that considering everything that has been said and written about 9/11 over a ten year period had no effect on him, that Palin and the republicans over the last 2 years set him off?  You are being silly.

    Parent

    Link please to who is saying (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:46:03 PM EST
    Loughner is a "far left conspiracy theorist."  You keep saying "if what we are reading is true," but you seem to be the only one reading it and I can't even imagine where you got that idea.  Michelle Malkin again?

    Parent
    Weird, huh? (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Yman on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:12:55 PM EST
    The only "evidence" ever cited for these claims is an anonymous posting on his Twitter account by someone who claims she/he knew him, his inclusion of the Communist Manifesto in his favorite books, and his appearance in a video where he burns a flag (supposedly it's him - the guy's wearing a mask).

    Of course, many anti-government types have issues with the flag, and he also includes many other books on his list (Ayn Rand's "We The Living, Animal Farm, 1984, Mein Kampf, etc.).  He also was angry about people speaking languages other than English, the failure to use a gold-based currency standard, and ascribes to the "Patriot" conspiracy theory whereby the government uses language and grammar to control us.  Yet Buckeye only suggests he's a "far left conspiracy theorist".

    Strange.

    Parent

    Analyzing the political (none / 0) (#197)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 12:28:58 AM EST
    philosophy of a paranoid-schizophrenic is absurd on its face.

    Parent
    Apparently (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by chrisvee on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 05:08:42 PM EST
    He assumes if he repeats '9/11 far left conspiracy theorist' enough times we will internalize it.

    Parent
    Well, you do not have to take my word for it. (none / 0) (#199)
    by Buckeye on Thu Jan 13, 2011 at 11:40:50 AM EST
    Just get informed about the issues you are posting.

    Zeitgeist is a documentary which asserts among other things 9-11 Truther theories.

    Parent

    Physician, heal thyself (none / 0) (#200)
    by Yman on Thu Jan 13, 2011 at 01:25:11 PM EST
    Just get informed about the issues you are posting.

    Good advice.  Of course, the 9/11 Truth Movement is not a "far left conspiracy":

    Adherents of the 9/11 Truth movement come from diverse social backgrounds. The movement draws adherents from people of diverse political beliefs including liberals, conservatives, and libertarians.

    People like Bob Novak and Fox News's Andrew Napolitano would probably be shocked to hear themselves identified as "far leftists".

    OTOH, Laughner's initial interaction with(and resulting anger towards) Giffords dealt with his fascination with the government's use of grammar and words as a means of controlling people.  This is a theory pushed by David Wynn Miller, a far right activist from Milwaukee who the ADL has identified as part of the far-right "Redemption/Sovereign Citizen Movement".

    Parent

    Sorry (5.00 / 5) (#23)
    by smott on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:33:16 AM EST
    Please let's not get in to equivocating and saying "both sides do it"...

    Violent eliminationist rhetoric is overwhelmingly from the right.

    Peter Daou has a good post on this
    http://peterdaou.com/2011/01/gabrielle-giffords-and-the-rightwing-hate-machine/

    Parent

    Those are Your Example, Pretty Weak (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:41:51 AM EST
    Wishing someone was in a plane crash is a far cry from claiming a violent revolution is in order.

    'A dead Palin is more dangerous than a live one', isn't that quote promoting her life ?  It's certainly not putting anyone in the 'cross-hairs'.

    Certainly no one of the left of any influence is making any threats, not true on the right, if you want to use blog quotes, at least have the decently to find some on the right, you compared leaders to anonymous comments and then argued they are more of less equal.

    Did anyone think this person was a liberal when the news broke, did anyone think the Congresswoman was a conservative before hearing party affiliation ?

    Hardly, one camp is getting armed to the tee, calling for revolution and making claims that their way of life is in danger.  This is all we heard from the right during the election.  Sorry, but this isn't even close to balanced or equal hatred.

    Name the last liberal, progressive, or democrat to commit an political atrocity post-Vietnam.  Can't do it because we simply do not use guns, bombs, or poisons to make political statements.

    Now do the same on the right, too many too mention, so please stop with the equality of hated non-sense.

    What you are saying is basically we shouldn't point the fingers at the Klan when a black man ends up in a noose.  It's the one or two unstable individuals who actual did the hanging that are too blame.  All the N... talk was just talk, the violence isn't their fault, they have zero culpability, none. Ditto for the right hero brigade, no culpability what-so-ever.

    Please, anyone with 5 brain cells knows where this hatred is coming from and add it the fact that the right believes every man, woman, and child has a right to own 20 assault rifles and you end up with death, imagine that.

    Why do the nutz always end up in the rights camp as well ?  If you are unstable, paranoid, or just plain crazy, it is easy to blend in with people who have near zero reasoning skills, who operate on gut instinct rather than logic, who let hate feed their already warped view of the world.  It's a breeding palace for violence.

    Parent

    Those are only a few examples, I could list (none / 0) (#45)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:00:13 AM EST
    more from left wing groups, politicians, bloggers, calling for revolution/violence, wishing death on people, etc. if you want me to.  As for balance, in case you had not noticed, I am the only one on this site taking the other side.  There are no shortage of example being thrown around by posters on this site (not the ops) to the editorial page of the NY Times to the main stream media blaming innocent people for murder.

    Parent
    Again (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:22:22 AM EST
    How many have these left wing nuts killed, bagel.

    The right, last year I would put the number around 50, add in OKC, and in the past 40 years the right can claim about 1000 dead from political causes.

    The left, I can't think of one instance, not they haven't happeded, but I can't think of one.  Keep in mind I am speaking of political acts, not the Kinkley kind of act that wasn't political.

    Quotes, don't bother, I can out quote you by a factor of 100 using Rush alone, add in Fox, and any quote you find will be out done by a factor of 1000.  These are predominate voices in the R party, not guest hosts on MSNBC.

    Never mind the fact the left doesn't hoard guns, making any lunatic on the left hell bend on murder pretty much impotent.

    Parent

    Please. Some of us recall the '60s (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Towanda on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:23:02 PM EST
    and know that lefties are capable of anything as well.  And the backlash to that was not good for the country, Democrats, etc.  Now may be an opportunity to ratchet down the uncivil discourse on all sides, even if one side or the other is more or less out of line.

    Consider that if most of the righties are brought in line, the lefties who are out of line will be more visible.  And again, recall (or read about) the backlash that can set back a country, a party, for a long time.

    Parent

    There is no organized militant left (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:30:02 PM EST
    at this point in history.  Just because you remember the 60's doesn't mean that this is the 60's.  I happen to remember when there were some reasonable and moderate Republicans in Congress - that doesn't make it so today.  I remember when Arlen Specter seemed quite radical in the context of his party.  LOL  Those days are long gone.

    Parent
    Those who do not learn from the past. . . . (none / 0) (#138)
    by Towanda on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:45:30 PM EST
    But surely, you have heard that line -- and the rest of it.

    Parent
    exactly (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:50:40 PM EST
    which is why you really ought to be thinking about Germany in the 1930s

    Parent
    True, but there's a lot of history (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:56:15 PM EST
    to learn from.  This would not be one of the historical eras that we could honestly hold up as an example in which there is a flourishing and dominant leftwing movement - militant or not.

    This era would be one where we would have to look to historical examples of extreme rightist movements - and to be more accurate we'd have to look to those historical examples of what happens when there was a flourishing and organized extreme militant rightist movement.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#169)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:49:57 PM EST
    Do tell.  Other than the failed bombing plan of the Weather Underground (hello, Bill Ayers!), please detail the "anything" the left showed it was "capable of."

    Parent
    Hinckley I Meant (none / 0) (#61)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:24:39 AM EST
    Oh, go ahead and quote! (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:48:07 PM EST
    I can't wait to see what you come up with that compares with Sarah Palin et al.


    Parent
    If these things were said (none / 0) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:22:09 AM EST
    It isn't cool, they should be called out too.  But you gotta provide some links man.

    Parent
    A few links (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:39:55 AM EST
    Keith Halloran and Natch Greyes wishing death for the Palins.

    Timothy Horrigan who had to resign over this one.  He did apologize and resign to his credit.

    Progressive site OEN wishing Limbaugh would die and compared it to predator drones in Pakistan.

    Olberman last Saturday night even criticized himself along side his criticism of the right.

    Dylan Ratigan with cartoonist Ted Rall.  I like the way this post from the Columbia Journalism Review put this:

    If this were on Fox News, the media would be blowing a fuse. It better get working on this one. If it's suspension-worthy for an obiously left-wing host to give campaign donations to politicians, what is it when one quasi-endorses considering overthrowing the government via the gun?...

    Fox News's insane Glenn Bleck, while he's gone way, way overboard with violent imagery and rhetoric, at least hasn't gotten quite that explicit.

    Leaving aside the dubious wisdom of even inviting on your program somebody advocating considering violence, if you're going to do so, you at least need to go adversarial with them (I'm thinking old-school Phil Donahue show-how-they're-nuts style). But this [was} as friendly as interviews get...



    Parent
    Throw some websites/blogs in, too (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by Yman on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:00:09 AM EST
    Why not?

    The NH Democratic candidate and the NH state rep. who made the comments about Palin were roundly criticized for their comments - both apologized and the state rep resigned.  Compare that to the reaction from the right, where Palin - a national party leader - was defended and even lauded by the right for her comments.

    As for Ratigan, I have no idea why anyone would think he's a liberal (or even a Democrat).  

    Comments from websites are just silly.  It would take about 10 seconds on Google to find faaaaaar more offensive/threatening comments on right-wing websites - even those widely considered mainstream conservative leaders (Malkin, Coulter, Limbaugh, etc.).

    Parent

    Keith Halloran and Natch Greyes? (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:39:06 PM EST
    Gosh, you mean THE Natch Greyes?

    Who are you kidding besides yourself?  You've dredged up two people nobody ever heard of and an obscure blog as a counterweight to Sarah Palin and a whole mess of GOP politicians and candidates?

    Do you really believe this yourself?  You can't possibly.

    Parent

    Those were quotes from ... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Yman on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:43:52 AM EST
    ... a New Hampshire Dem candidate and a NH state rep.  Both were already called on it, both apologized, and the state rep resigned.

    Palin?

    Not so much.  Vitriolic rhetoric on the right is accepted as mainstream and, in fact, is often rewarded.

    No idea why Ratigan is thrown in there.

    Parent

    I noticed when I looked it up (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:49:48 AM EST
    that they didn't just get away with it and they apologized.  Palin apologizes for nothing, she keeps saying the same heinous stuff over and over and over again and even ups the ante by coming up with new and improved thinly veiled violence inspiring rhetoric.

    Parent
    Here are a couple (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by BTAL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:49:24 AM EST
    DLC heartland strategy.


    Krugman and Rep. Chris Van Hollengetting called out for for the same thing.

    The rhetoric has been used on both sides.  Bad for everyone and the country.

    Parent

    Well, I knew I'd see you here (5.00 / 4) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:57:45 AM EST
    in the midst of this "discussion".  And I knew that the first words out of your keyword would be everyone is doing it.  Everyone is not doing it and the right has removed itself from the field of discussing any actual facts concerning issues that our country is facing.  They have instead opted for using a flurry of slogans that feed on rightwing indoctrinational speak....and they use it in a way to only protect and legislate for their rich contributors and nobody else.  When that isn't working as well as they would like they then resort to creating nasty veiled violence inspiring rhetoric to stir up emotional political energy, and not all Democrats are going to take it lying down.  Some will toss it back at you before they think, and when they do that we call them out.  You guys call nobody out.  You love what is going on, you think its great until it is time to be responsible for what you have wrought and then all you can do is look for someone else to blame.  

    Parent
    Malkin has an entire very long page (none / 0) (#57)
    by BTAL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:19:44 AM EST
    from too many sources to count.

    Link

    Again, the rhetoric has been growing more and more nasty and it is not good.  The vulgar attacks against GWB are just as vile as anything ever seen.

    I despise it from both sides.  So, don't put words into my mouth or attribute any such nonsense to me.

    Parent

    And yet (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:38:57 AM EST
    it took Obama's election to have everyone run out and buy guns.  And right wing extremism is at a high.  Palin used the concept of "reloading" for fundraising.  Youtube videos and links from 2004 do not a systematic pattern make.  Yes, both sides can be violent - but one side is orchestrating it far more than the other.

    Parent
    Everyone? Overstatement (none / 0) (#88)
    by Towanda on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:18:43 PM EST
    never persuades the intelligent, and that covers most commenters here.  The statement also is imprecise.  Ah, for the halcyon days of 2007 when "no one" had guns at all in this country?  Or am I the only one who did not run out and buy a gun since 2008? Etc.

    As for one "side" being capable of orchestrating and the other not capable of organizing a d*mn thing, well, that has been said about Democrats/the Left before here.  So those few, several, many, whichever, are individually guilty of contributing to the vitriolic culture.  Being disorganized does not excuse other behaviors nor persuade me to think any better of them.

    Parent

    I do not equate calling (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:45:53 PM EST
    George W Bush out for being a vile warmongering liar as inciting violence.  Liberals DO NOT encourage guns at political events and we DO NOT draw crosshairs on George W Bush or insist that there are second amendment solutions.  Bush and Cheney are both immoral murderers, they are rich men who feel certain that killing a few other people in order to make themselves even richer is okay.  Telling the truth about people does not equate teaching and preaching that they should be shot and/or killed.

    Parent
    I agree, although I sure do hope (none / 0) (#103)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:50:59 PM EST
    that if someone comes along and kills one of them in their retirement (Rummy, Vice, Dubya, Rice), we do not get blamed/censored because we provoked it...you know with all "our" (sarcasm) vitriolic references of equating Bush to Hilter and being a war criminal, etc.  I will still protest these things with all the passion and energy I can muster.

    Parent
    If violent solutions (none / 0) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:59:22 PM EST
    are given a stamp of approval by leaders...any and all leaders...no real solutions will ever be found because nobody will be able to experience natural shame.  That is the only cure for people like Bush and Cheney and what ails our country at this time, and that is for them to have to experience the natural shame that occurs when your countrymen draw back from your vile presence and would even rather that their flesh never touch your own putrid flesh if you have no boundaries or functional morals.  Natural shame creates functional boundaries, violence destroys the possibility of being able to feel and focus on the natural shame that comes eventually wedded to being greedy and murderous and foul.  Of course, a true sociopath will never be able to feel it, but such people can be removed from positions of power once their lack of being able to experience natural shame is understood by the voters.

    Parent
    Don't be ridiculous (none / 0) (#111)
    by sj on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:05:21 PM EST
    Of course the "left" would be blamed, with such oh-so-sanctimonious nods.  Whether or not it was valid.  

    And it's doubtful "we" would be censored, because "they" would still want to be able to run their mouths.

    Parent

    Did you even look at the images (none / 0) (#128)
    by BTAL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:36:12 PM EST
    at the Malkin link?  It was not a "calling out".  Plenty of outright death statement, far far beyond drawing crosshairs.

    Parent
    Speaking for myself (5.00 / 2) (#136)
    by sj on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:44:45 PM EST
    I did not and will not willingly and with forethought go to a Malkin link.  That woman has actually put addresses of citizens (one of them a child) on her website.  And then used inciteful language.  So naturally she would just love to rationalize that behavior.

    And if, as I suspect, they are links to blogs then Big Woo.  They neither have a megaphone into the US (ala Glen Beck or R Limbaugh), nor hold public office.

    If they're legit links then post them yourself.

    Parent

    Me either :) (none / 0) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:46:55 PM EST
    Malkin's (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:38:15 PM EST
    list is a joke. It looks like she googled for images and just stuck them up it. It actually hurts Palin if anything. None of that stuff was done by a major political figure like Palin.

    The right has been doing this eliminationist rhetoric since the 90's. Do you remember the '92 GOP convention and how full of "they" it was and how "evil" "they" are. The two Pats speaking? And then we have the conservative militia movement in the 90's and now the tea party who by the way in a poll showed that many, many of them believe that violence and murder is the only way to go.

    This is what happens when movements collapse. They turn to terrorism as a means and the collapse of the current conservative movement has just devolved into terrorism.

    Parent

    Thank you for going there for me (none / 0) (#140)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:48:11 PM EST
    and repoting back.  Didn't think any major political figure had anything to do with any of the crap she's going to put up.

    Parent
    Michelle Malkin, that paragon (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:40:51 PM EST
    of sober rationality

    she is so full of spitting rage that she even outspat Tweety on his own shown & he called her out for her rageaholic stupidity on the air

    even the righties had to concede that MM was not ready for prime time

    but let's all listen respectfully to what Michelle Malkin has to say about "the left"

    Parent

    The images posted are what are there (2.00 / 1) (#160)
    by BTAL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:36:24 PM EST
    and can't be dismissed based on a dislike of the source.

    As for posting private information on a website for political agendas, she is not alone as it has been done on the left.

    The "we are innocent" mantra from the left is ringing hollow.  

    Again, neither side has the high ground on the rhetoric and it is hurting the country.

    Parent

    pffft (5.00 / 2) (#170)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:52:25 PM EST
    can't be dismissed based on a dislike of the source

    i dismiss MM because she is a vicious rightwing rageaholic tool

    & for that i dislike her, yes - very much indeed

    but i dismiss her because she has made herself a highly impeachable "source"

    you are quick to lecture us that we are commenting on a lefty legal blog - why are you attempting to bolster your arguments with rabid rightwing sources?

    perhaps because you are making what are fundamentally rabid rightwing arguments?

    yes i think so

    if what you are trying to say is that there are people on the left whose rhetoric goes somewhat over the top, sure - it's a banal enough argument scarcely requiring multiple heated exchanges on this blog

    but there is not an INSTITUTIONALIZED sanctioning of antigovernmental violence on the left, unlike what we have with extremist rightwing elements that have successfully made deep inroads into the GOP

    imo, you are becoming a troll on this thread

    Parent

    And you think that makes it right? (5.00 / 2) (#174)
    by sj on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:05:08 PM EST
    As for posting private information on a website for political agendas, she is not alone as it has been done on the left.

    I don't care if "it has been done on the left".  And I don't need your examples -- phony OR legit.  It's wrong no matter who does it.

    As for "dislike of a source", I know you know the difference between a Democratic leader and some random website.  I know you know the difference between any national figure (such as Beck or Limbaugh) and some random website.  

    It is also apparent that you want to hide behind your pretended ignorance so that you can continue to make your sanctimonious "both sides do it" BS.

    By drawing such false equivalences, you, BTAL -- you specifically -- are one of the many, many individuals that give political leaders and national figures permission to continue spewing hate.

    Parent

    So the DCCC uses of bulleyes/targets are (2.00 / 1) (#183)
    by BTAL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:57:22 PM EST
    acceptable?  So the owner of DailyKos using the target metaphor is acceptable - even against this same individual?  Are you calling them out on your side?

    Do as I say and not as I do there for all to see in those two examples.  No false equivalences drawn.

    Parent

    From FDL Re:Crosshairs (none / 0) (#198)
    by Harry Saxon on Tue Jan 11, 2011 at 08:51:38 AM EST

    I will agree with Thiessen that Moulitsas should not have used targeting terminology. And I will also agree with Thiessen that Moulitsas' actions were as irresponsible as those of Palin-just as soon as he shows me that Moulitsas also said something as provocative as "Don't retreat-reload", that he gets his jollies shooting defenseless animals from a helicopter and that he has provided a videotaped message of support for a lunatic fringe group that advocates violence and secession. The sickness in Washington that would try to paint equivalence between Moulitsas and Palin in terms of provocation to violence is a big reason why our political landscape has become completely devoid of consequences for action. As long as hacks like Thiesssen are out there painting false equivalences between people as diametrically opposite as Markos Moulitsas and Sarah Palin, Palin will be able to get away with fomenting violence and Thiessen's former associates will never face prosecution for torture.

    Click Me

    Parent

    please do not repost (none / 0) (#194)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:24:41 PM EST
    comments from other threads.

    And all commenters should avoid insults to other commenters and name-calling and personal attacks on anyone.

    Parent

    Not even close (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by Dadler on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:09:43 AM EST
    When 99% of the most heinous rhetoric comes from the crazy right you are being intensely dishonest trying to make a comparison.  That you could search and find one or two MIDLY comparable pieces of vitriol does not come CLOSE to the atmosphere cultivated by the right.

    Sorry, you cannot even be serious that there is some gigantic war between left and right in this country. There is no left in this country, period, nothing even remotely close to the organied anger on the right.

    That you cannot even be honest and say, yes, it's pretty obvious that the far right engages in this rhetoric far more than anything that could be identified with the left, but instead you, in effect, lie like a rug.

    Can't respect it, can't buy it, take it and shove it.

    Parent

    You are pulling out (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:10:22 AM EST
    a link from 2004???  Are you kidding me???  Show me on the map where it says RELOAD.

    Parent
    I looked them up (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:34:24 AM EST
    Paul Hodes staffer and Halloran wished her dead.  Actually, what the staffer said was a veiled threat.  And I'm not defending them doing this, but the Republicans have been on a threatening violence spree and not every Democrat is going to sniffle and back into a corner.  Some of them when they aren't thinking before they speak will throw the threats and the rhetoric right back in her face and a few did.

    Parent
    Yu (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by smott on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:40:28 AM EST
    99% comes from one side and 1% from the other and we get on the slippery slope saying, "well they both do it" ...call a spade a spade. This is a right wing strategy and has been for a couple decades now, thanks to the elimination of Fairness Doctrine IMO....after that the airwaves were taken over by the hate machine.

    Remember when you had to  provide equal time for opposing political views?

    Those were the good old days...

    Parent

    What a joke (none / 0) (#100)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:48:15 PM EST
    It comes from websites to chain email to right-wing media to political candidates, office holders and near violent disruptive acts at public political forums.

    There is simply no comparison between the Republicans and Democrats when it comes to the vitriol and violent undertone of rhetoric.

    If you think it's even remotely comparable you've fallen down a rabbit hole.

    This allusion to violence comes from the political right and the GOP has done little to nothing to rein in their sick supporters.  They get back to the veiled suggestions of violence again after this terrible tragedy fades from public memory.

    A few decades ago I remember my family doctor (a Republican as most doctors were at the time) suggesting that violent acts should have been used to stop FDR.


    Parent

    I remember a few decades ago (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:53:58 PM EST
    Vietnam war protestors blowing up buildings actually killing people.

    Parent
    Tiny splinter group (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by brodie on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:03:53 PM EST
    of Weathermen far lefties who actually intended to destroy certain kinds of property rather than individuals, and who probably had more of themselves accidentally killed in the process than any one or two people killed by accident when they set off building bombs.

    Not much there, and that was 40 yrs ago.  

    What else?

    The Far Left today is mighty small, and most aren't running for office calling for Second Amendment "remedies" against gov't officials who disagree with their extremist views.

    Parent

    "People"? (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Yman on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:11:00 PM EST
    Are you talking about the Sterling Hall bombing?  As noted historian Howard Zinn noted:

    "The movement against the Vietnam War reveals the double standard of government...It was a remarkably nonviolent movement. There was one instance, so rare that it must be noted, where antiwar protesters in Madison, Wisconsin, planted a bomb in a military research building, timed to go off in the middle of the night, when no one would be in the building. But one man was working there, and he was killed." - pg. 143 of Declarations of Independence

    Hardly comparable.

    Parent

    The late, great Zinn (none / 0) (#122)
    by Towanda on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:25:33 PM EST
    was speaking in a carefully defined context.

    There were many bombings, not all leading to deaths, but there also were other deaths.

    And the children of Robert Fassnacht, adults now, grew up without a father, their mother without a husband, in Madison if we want to tally victims by the numbers.

    Parent

    how "many" bombings? (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:35:26 PM EST
    links please

    Parent
    There were not (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:00:08 PM EST
    "many" bombings.  There were a handful, most by a small faction of the Weather Underground until they blew themselves up by accident.

    This is nonsense and really quite absurd revisionist history.

    Parent

    My point was not that a single death ... (none / 0) (#135)
    by Yman on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:44:38 PM EST
    ... was insignificant, but that Buckeye was exaggerating.  Yes, there were multiple bombings which, like the Sterling Hall bombing, were not intended to kill people - as opposed to the numerous attacks by the far right since then.  As for Zinn's "carefully defined context", I'll assume you meant the context of reality, since his premise was entirely accurate.

    BTW - See how big you can make the list!  "Dog grew up without a master, neighbors without a neighbor, colleagues without a co-worker ..."

    BBTW - Just so you're clear - not trivializing the death of Robert Fassnacht at all.  Just trying to clarify to make apple-to-apple comparisons.  If we're going to include family members of right-wing extremists (i.e. Oklahoma bombing victims, murdered abortion providers, homophobic murders, etc.), I'm gonna need a calculator.

    Parent

    Citation, please (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:57:58 PM EST
    Which buildings were blown up killing how many actual people?

    I am aware only of a few small bombs set by a tiny handful of people in a faction of the Weather Underground-- who were roundly and thoroughly condemned for it by the entire rest of the left and the anti-war movement.  A bomb at a police station did kill one officer and blind another, but it was never clear whether that was a WU action or not.  Then that handful of people cidentally blew themselves up while they were making a bomb, and that was the end of it.

    Parent

    What on earth (none / 0) (#107)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:59:15 PM EST
    does that have to do with anything we're discussing.

    Parent
    About as much as you bringing up your doctor. (none / 0) (#115)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:08:16 PM EST
    "Violent revolution" Really? (none / 0) (#159)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:34:57 PM EST
    Once more, care to provide a link?

    You do know, right, that "revolution" is a term used quite commonly in this country, as in, oh, for instance, the "Republican revolution."

    I've certainly seen zippo to the effect that Ratigan (who's hardly a lefty, btw, or probably even a Democrat) has advocated violence of any sort.


    Parent

    I'm pretty sure (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 08:54:05 AM EST
    all I did was post a video.

    But whatever.

    Parent

    My post was not directed at you at all. (none / 0) (#6)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 09:04:14 AM EST
    My apologies if it appeared I did.  I am saying IF people (i.e. Krugman in the NY Times) try to blame this (even partially) on the right for someone commiting a crime that he was planning since 2007, has serious mental illness, and there is no evidence it had anything to do with politics (it had more to do with his removal from community college) it would not be the first as the right has made a living off this kind of stuff.

    Parent
    Seems inconsistent to me: (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 09:30:20 AM EST
    He was planning to commit a crime since 2007, but it had more to do with removal from community college in fall of 20l0 than politics.  And, the target was not the college president, but a Congresswomen whom he has been following since 2007 and, apparently, disagreed with her positions.  The referenced video, as well as the words of the local sheriff involved with the case present an environment ripe for incitement and the acting out of a troubled soul.  We need to await investigative results, in my view, but it will be important to call a spade a spade without concern for offending those who have offended.

    Parent
    I can pick vitriol from both sides if I want (none / 0) (#13)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:01:14 AM EST
    to sucker punch people and hold them at least partially responsible for a murder.  Attached is something written by Markos at the Daily KOS  June 25th, 2008.

    Who to primary? Well, I'd argue that we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution last week. I've bolded members of the Blue Dogs for added emphasis
    [Giffords is bolded]

    Not all of these people will get or even deserve primaries, but this vote certainly puts a bulls eye on their district.

    Markos has also said recently Gifford was "Dead to him" for voting against Pelosi for speaker.  How different is that?  Markos is no more responsible for what happened as I am.  We have had Democrats talk about wishing Palin was dead, wishing she was on the Alaskan plane that killed Senator Stephens, wishing Limbaugh would die.  On MSNBC, Dylan Ratigan spoke approvingly of violent revolution stating "Are things in our country so bad that it might actually be time for a revolution?  The answer is obviously yes.  The only question is how to do it."  I stongly dislike most of what the right stands for and how they say it, but we could play this game both ways.

    I agree we need to learn more about Loughner, but from what I am hearing, he had been targeting Gifford since 2007, that if anything sent him over the brink to act out on it would have been getting expelled from Pima Community college more than anything else, that every kid that described Loughner said he is a far-left liberal, he was a 9/11 conspiracy theorist, etc.  

    I do not know if any of this about Loughner is true or not, we need to learn more.  But we should not be rushing to judge anyone responsible for this other than Loughner.

    Parent

    You can FIND vitriol NOT from Repubs (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Dadler on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:15:11 AM EST
    But come on, man, you cannot, IN ANY WAY, find the KIND of vitriol, in anything APPROACHING the level or amount, from LEADERS on "the left", whatever that is anymore, with those on the right. This is a batsh*t crazy argument. The right throws this stuff around like it was nothing, over and over again, all over the place. Because you can find a FEW instances of bloggers or staff or whatever, you claim that's an equivalence.  Sorry, that is just not rational.  

    Quantity and tone matters. On those measurements, you cannot make any comparison between the madness on the the right and anything on the imaginary left.

    Crazy.

    Why are you so afraid to call out the right here?  There IS a war on in this country, it is a class war, and it is raging, and it's not going to stop as long as good people stay silent.

    Parent

    Is world round or flat? (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by smott on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:20:46 AM EST
    "Opinions Differ"

    =
    Violence?
    "Both sides do it"


    Parent

    I am not afraid to call out the right when they (none / 0) (#86)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:13:22 PM EST
    are wrong.  I am on TalkLeft defending innocent people of murder.  If it turns out to be true that this guy is a left wing nut and a 9/11 conspiracy theorist that has been planning this since 2007, then the right is not responsible for this lunatic's behavior.  I looked at some of the youtubes Loughner put up, if he is the shooter (he has not been convicted yet), it does not show he had any political motivation at all.  He is just a madman that would have shot up that place regardless.

    Sometimes it happens.  Someone tried to kill Reagan to impress Jodie Foster for crying out loud.

    Parent

    The argument (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:28:39 PM EST
    being made is not that his political beliefs or love for Sarah Palin made him do this.  The question is, where did he get the idea that it's okay to kill political figures?  There's only one party that is proffering that at the moment...and that's the GOP.  Arizona is especially conservative.

    There have been a number of incidents since Obama's taken office.  (Washington Monthly)  A guy who is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist is distrustful of the government.  Who's saying that we should distrust the government, and in fact, maybe even, nudge nudge, take them out?  The GOP.  They encourage this behavior.

    Parent

    Where did Hinkley get the idea to shoot Reagan? (none / 0) (#95)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:35:10 PM EST
    From a movie starring Robert DeNiro and Jodie Foster.  Did the country ban movies starring Foster?  Did we ban movies about Presidential assassinations (which is what DeNiro was planning the film)?  No...because we had more sense back then.

    Parent
    Why (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:42:18 PM EST
    did this guy try to kill his Congresswoman at a political rally she was having in a grocery store?  I missed that movie.

    What we have here is an attempted assassination of a politician by an insane crank at a political event, in a state where the political discourse has been an unrelenting howl of eliminationist rhetoric and characterization of anyone to the left of Genghis Khan as a traitor and enemy of the state...and now, when six (including a nine year old girl) lie dead and another fourteen are wounded, now suddenly we're concerned that it is rude and politicizing a tragedy to point out that the right wing has produced a toxic atmosphere that pollutes our politics with hatred and the rhetoric of violence?

    [PZ]

    Parent

    The point I think you missed is that (none / 0) (#106)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:56:35 PM EST
    a political killer does not need a reason related to politics to do it (and often times kill for apolitical reasons).  The post I was responding to said that someday put the idea in his head.  The idea to kill a Democratic Congressperson did not come from the right.  It came from the mind of a madman.

    Parent
    OK (3.00 / 2) (#110)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:04:30 PM EST
    so the guy that flew the airplane into the I.R.S. Office, the guy that shot Dr. Tiller, and the guy that shot up the Holocaust Museum, and this guy, have nothing in common.

    The idea to kill a Democratic Congressperson did not come from the right.

    And yet the right talks about this a LOT.  (Beck, Bachmann, Palin...)

    Parent

    Huh ? (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:26:46 PM EST
    Did I mention ban ?  Remind me please, because this 'put words in my post that never existed' is exactly what I am writing about.  I never wrote that, mentioned that, but you are trying to inflame by suggesting those are my words or ideas.  They aren't, they are a product of what you imagine I want, they are your ideas, not mine.

    Look Ohio, I don't think what they are doing is illegal and I don't think the Constitution should be changed.

    I am saying they bear some responsibility with their speech, that's it.  You know it, I know it, they know, but no one will admit it because when you really think about it, that's all they have, without it they are ordinary, and no pays for ordinary.

    If I tell a suicidal person they are right and they have nothing to live for am I legally responsible for their death, no, but morally there is some responsibility.

    Telling people lies about death panels, internment camps, socialism, and on and on is going to make people angry, damn angry.  Telling them D's are at fault gives them an enemy, it is really that far fetched to think some unstable people might take it a step further, after all their very being is at stake, according to some.

    Why can't they just turn it down a notch and quit telling the masses we want to end grannies life early or that we are going to round them into internment camps, or that we are doing what the Nazis did ?  All lies made-up for one purpose to anger people into hating them.  

    Parent

    Again, ridiculous (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:06:15 PM EST
    Markos has also said recently Gifford was "Dead to him" for voting against Pelosi for speaker.  How different is that?

    The remark "dead to me" is not a threat or suggestion of violence.

    It means that the person in question is no longer considered part of your life.

    Parent

    I don't think he said that (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by nycstray on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:16:06 PM EST
    It was another who had posted a diary (before Sat) that said that. Person pulled diary and apologized. There were also no threats or anything contained within the diary. Just a disappointed person airing their view to a recent vote in a diary with an unfortunate headline/title.

    Parent
    Yes, and maybe we should not (none / 0) (#17)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:16:07 AM EST
    be rushing to judge Loughner just yet.  After all, there is the rule of law with which to contend.

    Parent
    Okay, I can agree with that. All we know (none / 0) (#19)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:17:52 AM EST
    right now is that a terrible crime has been committed, let's not blame anyone yet.

    Parent
    Yeaaaah (none / 0) (#21)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:31:35 AM EST
    Former V.P. candidate / de facto party leader & her fellow nutjobs > Markos and Dylan Ratigan and whoever said that about the plane.  

    It's a matter of scale.  The GOP has been ginning up the hate since Obama's been in office.  

    Parent

    If it turns out to be true that Loughner (none / 0) (#27)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:41:46 AM EST
    is a far left liberal, than anything said on MSNBC or Daily KOS would have much more influence on him than Palin.  But you know what?  Those two are 0% to blame.

    Parent
    Right (none / 0) (#33)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:48:47 AM EST
    Maybe he was a martian, maybe the world is flat, and maybe the right wing is made up of rational, fact finding people who actually care about the rule of law.

    This is pure non-sense, name a lefty who has committed political murder in the last 40 years, then name the righties.  I would be surprised if you could name one lefty, and the righties, well that list is going to be long and the dead people, many.

    Parent

    Completely irrelevant to what I wrote. (none / 0) (#48)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:06:52 AM EST
    If the reports are correct about Loughner, he would not be influenced to kill a Democrat from Sarah Palin - especially if it was true he was planning it since 2007 (when he would have no idea who she was).

    BTW, in case you forgot, someone tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan.  Did the uber lunatic Hinkley get pushed over the edge from the hate spewed at Reagan by the left?  Were they responsible?  Was Jodie Foster responsible because he was trying to impress her?  She played a child prostitute in a film where De Niro plots to assassinate a President.  Let's not let her or Deniro act anymore or make any more movies about Presidential assissination.  What nonsense.

    Parent

    i've heard about that (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:09:53 AM EST
    Let's not let her or Deniro act anymore or make any more movies about Presidential assissination.

    assissination - isn't that when an assissin shoots a magic lavender laser beam & turns an elected official gay?

    Parent

    Was he planning it since 2007? (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by nycstray on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:55:12 AM EST
    Or is that just when he met her and became disgruntled with her?

    Parent
    He was dissatisfied with her answer (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:50:53 PM EST
    to a question he asked at that earlier public meeting... it was along the lines of what is the meaning of govt if there is no meaning to words or some other gobbledygook.

    Attacking govt for 'grammar' is faaaaaar-right conspiracy.

    Parent

    I see you've been (none / 0) (#149)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:10:53 PM EST
    reading that nitwit Jay Newton-Small over at Time magazine's Swampland blog.  She got it wrong, as usual.  Markos didn't post that, somebody in Giffords's district put it in a diary.

    And you also have not been reading anywhere that Loughner had been "targeting" Giffords since 2007.  You've read that he conceived a dislike for her in 2007, but that's hardly equivalent to plotting an assassination.

    Secondly, please provide a link to the "Democrats" who have said publicly they wished Palin was dead. (I won't even require it be Democrats with as gigantic a public platform as Palin.)  Please also provide a link or two to Democrats who publicly wished she'd been on the Stevens plane.  Ditto Democrats publicly proclaiming they wished Limbaugh would die.

    Thank you.


    Parent

    I already have provided such links. (none / 0) (#154)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:24:39 PM EST
    If you read through my posts on this thread, you will find them.

    Furthermore, I have no idea who Jay Newton-Small is.

    Parent

    dude (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:18:50 AM EST
    what more than this do you need in order to understand not just where the preponderance of the hate is coming from but who specifically & recently has been fomenting it?

    the knee-jerk reaction among many "progressives" to blame Sarah Palin is unattractive, tainted as it is w/"progressive" misogyny - but that does not mean that these "progressives" are wrong in this case about the influence that Sarah Palin clearly & deliberately wields

    Parent

    Again, if you are going to accuse people (none / 0) (#63)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:27:48 AM EST
    of being an accomplice to murder, you have a few problems.  First, this guy is a far left liberal and a 9/11 conspiracy theorist from what we are hearing.  If that is true, do you have any idea what that means?  He believes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from republicans or the media.  I will quote Bill Maher:

    How big a lunatic do you have to be to watch two giant airliners packed with jet fuel slam into buildings on live TV, igniting a massive inferno that burned for two hours, and then think 'well, if you believe that was the cause...

    If he believed that, and has been planning this since 2007, then the newfangled "culture of hate" you are wringing your hands about had nothing to do with this.

    Parent

    He's not a far left liberal. (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by observed on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:49:13 AM EST
    Stop Powterizing the issue.

    Parent
    Could you please share a link as to how you (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:52:06 AM EST
    know this?  I have read the opposite, but we still do not know yet.

    Parent
    He's been listening to righty conspiracies (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by waldenpond on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:55:51 PM EST
    The govt grammar conspiracy comes from the faaar-right.  There are many on the right that are 9/11 conspiracy theorists.  This guy calls women who have abortion 'terrorists'... that is hardly a 'left' position.  His money conspiracies come from the right.  His obsession with religion could be considered more of a right position as liberals are supposed to be irreligious/godless.

    Parent
    Yeah, grammar and usage in (none / 0) (#181)
    by observed on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:46:18 PM EST
    the 8th district are hot button lefty issues.

    Parent
    bs (none / 0) (#80)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:53:09 AM EST
    i did not call anyone an accomplice to murder

    i pointed to a very recent example of a rightwing politician - in this case a Tea Party candidate for political office who happened to be Giffords' opponent - using the language & imagery of gun violence & contributing to a particular atmosphere

    he has a 1st amendment right to do that, & many would say that the alleged shooter has a 2nd amendment right to carry a gun

    so be it

    now if you want to argue that there is ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION between these 2 individuals exercising their 1st & 2nd amendment rights, don't let anyone stop you

    if you want to argue that Kelly's ad had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do w/an individual gun nut choosing to take an automatic weapon to a place where he knew that a particular elected official would be present, it's still a free country (sort of)

    i guess you can only assume that it's just a TOTAL coincidence that this particular gun nut unloaded on a CONGRESSWOMAN he has held a grudge against for several years

    because as we all know, gun nuts are always coincidentally attempting to assassinate elected officials - it's the darnednest thing

    & of course nothing in the poisonous rhetorical atmosphere fomented by the rightwing could possibly have anything to do with that

    Parent

    Doesn't this quote (I assume you are being (none / 0) (#89)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:22:40 PM EST
    sarcastic):

    i guess you can only assume that it's just a TOTAL coincidence that this particular gun nut unloaded on a CONGRESSWOMAN he has held a grudge against for several years

    because as we all know, gun nuts are always coincidentally attempting to assassinate elected officials - it's the darnednest thing

    prove my point?


    Parent

    um, no actually (none / 0) (#129)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:37:53 PM EST
    Is it coincidental (none / 0) (#91)
    by Towanda on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:25:04 PM EST
    that this particular gun nut with a grudge against this particular member of Congress lived in the district of and was represented by her?

    Duh.

    Parent

    Newfangled my foot (none / 0) (#114)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:08:14 PM EST
    Vitriol of a violent nature from the right has been around for years.

    Parent
    As the left. (none / 0) (#116)
    by Buckeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:09:56 PM EST
    Again (none / 0) (#201)
    by cal1942 on Fri Jan 14, 2011 at 05:05:29 AM EST
    you've gone down the rabbit hole.

    If you want to keep score it's a blowout.

    Parent

    For balance, next post you need to (none / 0) (#7)
    by observed on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 09:11:51 AM EST
    not post a video.

    Parent
    Hilarious. (none / 0) (#10)
    by Towanda on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 09:30:37 AM EST
    <cleaning screen and pondering this proposal for the FCC:  for every stupid hour of TV, go to black for an hour>

    Parent
    Depends on who is doing the blaming... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Thanin on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:43:20 AM EST
    if its Giffords after she makes her full recovery, she'll be untouchable.

    Parent
    Yes, or consider the impact (none / 0) (#101)
    by Towanda on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:48:26 PM EST
    of dredging up this Democrat's quote again:

    "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun! Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl!"

    Barack Obama, Philadelphia, June 2008

    Parent

    Hmmm. Inconvenient truth. (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:08:04 PM EST
    Who said (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by cal1942 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:10:12 PM EST
    Obama was an actual Democrat?

    Not as  far as I'm concerned.


    Parent

    oh please (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:34:14 PM EST
    everybody knows that Obama on that occasion was riffing on the current meme that Dems are so wimpy they "bring a knife to a gunfight"

    no comparison

    nice try though

    Parent

    Please yourself (2.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Towanda on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:02:07 PM EST
    but "everybody knows" is the weakest argument of all.  

    And dismissing the quote leads you back to the argument that Dems are wimpy, which is not a winner, either.

    Nice try, though.

    Parent

    well since you (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:23:18 PM EST
    are so eager to remind the rest of us to "learn from history," here is some history

    to address the point you were making earlier, Rush has already tried the gambit of using this quote against Obama - pathetic

    moreover, note that Obama said this in Philadelphia, in June 2008 - before the traditional start of the presidential campaigns but after the PA primary, which you will recall Obama lost, big time

    one reason why Obama lost in PA is that the residents of that state correctly perceived him to be an elitist candidate in the mold of John Kerry

    Obama knew this

    Obama had heard the criticisms of Kerry in 2004 & of Dems in general for "bringing a knife to a gunfight"

    that is the context of Obama's remark

    but go ahead & join Rush Limbaugh in twisting it around

    pretty soon you'll be able to make the shooting of Cong. Giffords all Obama's fault

    Parent

    No, I won't. You are ridiculous (2.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Towanda on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:42:14 PM EST
    if you think that you know me or the future.

    And ridiculous if you think that the winning argument for a pol is that it had to be done to pander, to attempt to win.  I had forgotten that Obama lost that primary, but thanks for reminding me how futile were his too-obvious attempts to sound non-elitist.

    By the way, I had that quote from the Facebook page of a friend, a liberal and an African American who is encouraging a much better discussion than this one.  When Facebook beats TalkLeft at intelligent discourse, that's just sad for this blog.

    Parent

    ok (none / 0) (#179)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:23:23 PM EST
    By the way, I had that quote from the Facebook page of a friend, a liberal and an African American

    i guess this proves that at least one liberal African American is no more knowledgeable than you are about the context of Obama's remark

    so?

    Parent

    That (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:44:56 PM EST
    statement is borderline funny coming from Obama. Can you see him trying to fight in a brawl? It would be a repeat of his bowling disaster.

    Parent
    Really (none / 0) (#173)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:01:49 PM EST
    Obama trying to talk tough just makes himself look even more ridiculous.

    Parent
    American Conservative Nails It! Should Palin be (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Dan the Man on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 08:46:26 AM EST
    sent to Guantanamo for providing material support for terrorism?  Awesome question from the American Conservative.


    The terrorist attack on Congresswoman Giffords and her entourage raises some interesting questions of culpability since the laws governing terrorism have been made so elastic that almost anyone can be charged for almost anything.  Ali Hamza Ahmad Suliman al Bahlul, a citizen of Yemen currently held in the United States Guantanamo Bay detention camps, was convicted in November 2008 of performing media relations (making videos) for Osama bin Laden and sentenced to life imprisonment after a commission of 9 military officers deliberated for less than an hour.  One also recalls that bin Laden;'s driver was also imprisoned at Guantanamo.  Both men were charged with providing material support to a terrorist.

    Based on that precedent, it is clear that Sarah Palin and the others that advocated terroristic acts in the guise of exercising their 2nd Amendment rights and who have used gun metaphors in their campaigning have likewise provided Material Support for Terrorism.  Sarahpac website features a map of the United States with enemies listed and shown geographically, with a seen-through-a-gunsite symbol highlighting their location on the US map.  Giffords is one of the targets.  Palin or her handlers appear to be aware of the problem they have created as she is reported to be erasing all references to guns, gunsights, targeting, and shooting from her website as well as expressions like "no retreat-reload".

    Will Mrs. Palin be charged under the Military Commissions Act or is it restricted only to brown people originating somewhere east of Suez?

    Good question for those who support military commissions but only for the Muslims and the brown people.

    Let us hope... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:48:06 AM EST
    this awful tragedy gives the hate-mongers amomng us pause and causes them to reflect on their words and deeds...they certainly are a hinderance to a peaceful coexistence.

    But I can't get down with blaming anybody but the homicidal maniac...that's going too far.

    Sadly (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by smott on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:56:42 AM EST
    Hate-mongers are not the reflective sort.
    In fact sometimes I think they hate in order to avoid reflection....

    Parent
    That's a wise nugget.. (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:02:27 AM EST
    smott..."they hate in order to avoid reflection"...well said.

    But you gotta believe change and redemption is possible...the phonies getting paid mad bank to spread hate will probably not change, but I would hope beyond hope, if nothing else, the 9 year old girl murdered would pull someone on the fringe off the violent edge and make them see the evil error in it.  It can happen.

    Parent

    blushes (none / 0) (#54)
    by smott on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:18:19 AM EST
    Not often accused of being wise kdog LOL!

    Yeah I hope change is possible....but honestly if we couldn't get serious change after Columbine then I kind of despair it is coming now.  Violent rhetoric has become so normalized since then...

    I'm in Pittsburgh and we've had a couple of these in recent years - Rishard Poplowski who was afraid Obama would take away his AK47, and killed 3 cops outside his house after his Mom called 911...

    Anothe nutcase who hated women walked in to a fitness club and killed 3 women before killing himself...

    There was a lot of solidarity in Pgh after both of these incidents. People standing along the highway to salute the cops' funeral processions and candlelight vigils for the women and so on...

    It always seems we feel most like a supportive community 'after' tragedies. Not day to day as the norm.

    Sigh.


    Parent

    I hear ya... (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:31:35 AM EST
    Peace loving people need to more pro-active in spreading a positive message...in spreading love.  Not just coming together after a tragedy...eternal viligance is required.


    Parent
    For example, the mother of the (none / 0) (#67)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:34:07 AM EST
    nine-yr. old girl who was killed sd. let's get rid of hatred and these evil wars.  

    Parent
    I'd like to see (none / 0) (#69)
    by smott on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:38:30 AM EST
    If any packin' gun nut in AZ or anywhere could look that mother in the eye.

    Of course, that would take reflection, empathy, shame, and other related emotions....

    Parent

    why worry about hate-mongers... (5.00 / 0) (#56)
    by Dadler on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:19:15 AM EST
    ...if they aren't to blame? I believe, obviously, in blaming the person who actually did it too, but we worry about hate-mongers because they actually influence people. If they didn't, there would be no need for good and honest leadership in the world.

    Parent
    We are all influenced.. (none / 0) (#68)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:38:24 AM EST
    by our world, our view of it, and our experience in it....everything we see, hear, smell, touch, feel.

    I don't know man...I don't worry about the hate mongers, who has time...but I do get worried when people getting to talking about "doing something about it" beyond spreading a better message, that's bad news for free speech, free expression, and freedom in general imo.  Particularly before we know/learn more of the murderer and his motivations.  Nature of today's media I guess...but it turns me off.  The victims aren't even buried yet for goodness sake.  

    Parent

    Did you see the report Loughner (none / 0) (#71)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:41:06 AM EST
    was disruptive in pre-Algebra class in community college from the first class onward.  But, the final straw was when he posted on YouTube the community college was unconstitutional.  

    Parent
    I've got a lot of catching up to do... (none / 0) (#75)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:47:55 AM EST
    if I can stomach catching up...was buried in Shantaram and football this weekend and didn't even hear about it all till yesterday...semi-unplugged I was, and kinda regretting plugging back in....this world and it's humans really suck sometimes, I swear.

    Definitely sounds like a screw loose here, and I don't feel good about blaming others because a guy with a screw loose took their ball and ran with it...but I would hope they are questioning themselves and why their message is so palatable to violent loons.  

    Maybe I give the conscience of others too much credit because mine has a loud speaking voice...I don't know.

     

    Parent

    Agreed. Unless he states (none / 0) (#78)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:51:50 AM EST
    (still suspect), I shot Rep. Gifford point blank because Sarah Palin's website included Gifford in a cross-hair, who knows why he did shot Rep. Gifford?

    Parent
    I am no psych Dr (none / 0) (#83)
    by smott on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:04:36 PM EST
    But I would guess maybe a fixation w/Giffords after some kind of encounter in 2007, where he later related to an acquaintance that she was "stupid" and "unintelligent"...perhaps she rebuffed him in some way.  

    Just guessin'...

    Parent

    Yes. That poor prof (none / 0) (#94)
    by Towanda on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:30:36 PM EST
    apparently untenured, too, tried and tried to get the gutless administrators to do something for the sake of other students.  But that didn't matter, nor did the previous concerns of other instructors there for other students there.  And we have yet to hear why Loughner had to leave high school and what teachers there tried to do.

    Yet CNN brings on an "expert" who declaims that the schools and campuses are to blame, the teachers and instructors and profs are to blame, for not pushing such students into mental health treatment.  And this expert is a psychiatrist.  He clearly knows nothing about commitment laws, nor about the realities of litigious life in education (and much else) today.

    And yes, only when a Youtube video endangered the egos of administrators at the community college did they do anything.  What else could have been the reason?  Some fool making a video that says that campuses are unconstitutional is a problem, but students and instructors and others in danger is not.  Got it.

    Parent

    Come On (none / 0) (#43)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:58:19 AM EST
    If this were some isolated incident I would agree, but the fact that these homicidal maniacs always find their way to the right is no coincidence.

    I posed the question above, name a political homicidal maniac post-Vietnam from the left, then from the right.  

    Is no one to blame that their philosophies attract, cultivate, and arm these lunatics giving them validation to their already warped views ?

    Parent

    I can't make that leap... (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:16:56 AM EST
    between words and ideologies to unloading a clip on a crowd of unarmed human beings...no. And I find the rush to pin bodies on Palin or Limbaugh most unsavory.  They're bad news with bad ideas, but not murderers.

    Some of the hardcore right-wing ideology and teaching sure ain't helping...I get it.  And we should condemn violent rhetoric at every turn...but at the end of the day it is just rhetoric, and I can't blame somebody who writes an op-ed or appears as a talking head on the boob-tube or hosts a radio show for mass murder, nor do I support limiting the free speech rights of those who peddle in the violent rhetoric or other legislative "remedies".

    All we can do is spread a message of love farther and wider and cross our fingers that love conquers hate more often than hate conquers love...what else can ya do that won't make things worse?  More laws, more rules, more prison time will only harden hearts further.

    Parent

    Fair Enough (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:40:15 PM EST
    I will add that there are exceptions to free speech, namely speech can't be used to incite violence.  To me this is text book incitement, tell people their way of life is in endanger, toss in some death panels, internment camps, and Socialism/Nazism/Communism.

    That being said I don't believe what they do is illegal.  Shameful, definitely.  And I certainly don't want any reworking of the Constitution.

    My point was more that they have to take some responsibility.  They use lies and over-the-top rhetoric to incite anger, is it really a leap to imagine that some of those angry people might not know when to stop.

    What they are doing is wrong, but not illegal and I wouldn't want to it to be.  Ideally I wish that they would tone it down in hopes that they next deranged lunatic doesn't decide we (liberals) are all the enemy who are going turn the USA into communist Russia or Nazi Germany.

    Parent

    Double fair enough...:) (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 05:27:35 PM EST
    I would take a very liberal stance as to what speech incites violence...I have no desire to read Hitler's book, but I enjoyed Abbie Hoffman's "Steal This Book"...neither should be banned.

    I just don't think that is how you try to prevent these awful senseless killings...you bring a better message and hope our better nature wins out, imko.

    Parent

    Oh. "Post Vietnam." Why? (none / 0) (#58)
    by oculus on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:20:22 AM EST
    Mainly (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:18:05 PM EST
    Because there was a lot of political violence that is attributed to the left and since I am not old enough to know it's disinformation of fact.

    Plus a lot of people on the left in 1970 (southern democrats) are now on the right, so it seemed like a good cut-off date.

    Parent

    I fear for Obama (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Saul on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 10:57:32 AM EST
    Since he was elected I have always said an attempt on his life would happen during his term or second term if elected again.  I hope I am wrong.  But the hate atmosphere since he was elected has grown.  

    Too much hate out there.  Although discrimination has been controlled by the civil rights bills that does not take the hate out of those that want to discriminate.  The civil rights law just make discrimination illegal but it does not erase it out of peoples minds or thinking.

    He's fine and well protected (4.00 / 3) (#62)
    by Dadler on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:26:29 AM EST
    I tend to worry about the more helpless among us.

    Ironically, in many ways, Obama's inability to stand and fight for ANYthing, his inability to hold corporate crime accountable for the economic destruction is has wrought, his complete cowardice in the face of actual politics, he legitimizes the radical right.

    He doesn't even want the job, IMO, he just wanted to title.  It was about getting there for him, not doing something when he did.

    Parent

    At this time... (none / 0) (#120)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:19:20 PM EST
    claims that the President "legitimizes the radical right" are born of an angry emotion when so many of us could use a respite and/or non-strident discussion. Sorry, but for today, that warrants a "2" in my book.

    Parent
    The problem (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:49:30 PM EST
    is that Obama did not throw them an anvil when they were drowning. He breathed life into the GOP by chasing them for votes and his bipartisan kumbaya. Maybe if he had made them cower in the corner they wouldn't be so emboldened.

    Parent
    I understand you POV (none / 0) (#156)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:29:36 PM EST
    Here, I was focusing on the pernicious effects of over-the-top emotive language (in gradation, of course.)

    Parent
    Unless I fell asleep while reading, (none / 0) (#191)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 07:04:32 PM EST
    that "2" rating is not mine. Astounding...because I completely agree with you. (Seriously, I wonder what happened?) My apologies, in any event, for what is an inaccurate rating.

    Parent
    You can change it, christine. (none / 0) (#192)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 07:10:45 PM EST
    It happens when you make a rating and then move the screen with the up/down arrows--at least in my case and on my laptop.

    Parent
    MileHi:Thanks for assist...Changed Saul's rating (none / 0) (#193)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 07:49:43 PM EST
    please keep these fears to yourself (none / 0) (#195)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 11:32:01 PM EST
    I don't want suggestions of violence on this site. I understand your intent was not to cause harm, but there's also no reason to give some unbalanced nut who finds your comment on Google any ideas. Thank you.

    Parent
    The Arizona shootings, the injuries and (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Anne on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:10:49 PM EST
    the deaths, are just awful, but let's face it: there are people being shot and killed on the streets every day, and for the most part, our reaction is "oh, well."  Followed by, "gee, I'm glad I don't live there."  We have "casual" violence and we have "pre-meditated" violence and we have "I got somethin' to say" violence, and we have "try ignoring me now" violence and "don't disrespect me" violence.  The news goes 24/7 when it seems to be political, or someone "important" is killed or injured, or a lot of bodies hit the ground, but people are shooting and punching and stabbing and whacking and abusing others every day, so why is "ordinary" violence less noteworthy than political violence?

    And, what do we expect, really, from a society where people pay money to go sit in arenas or stadiums and watch people go after each other, where we cheer the hard hit, clap for the sack that slams the QB to the ground, roar for the right cross to the jaw?  What do we expect from a society where, if you can't actually fight a real war, you can engage in a virtual one?  Or, where upstanding citizens while away their free time playing shoot-`em-up on their game systems?

    We speed on the highways, slalom around the slow cars, scream at those who don't get out of our way, and never know if the person enraged at being cut-off will retaliate.  

    We scream at "customer service" reps on the phone, we think whatever we want we have to have RIGHT NOW or we'll have to start kicking us some ass.  Hurry, hurry, hurry.  Rush, rush, rush.  Try to be in six places at once and doing four things at a time, we are all closer to the edge of implosion and explosion than most of us realize.

    We come to accept that it's okay for people to live like dogs on the street, and then clutch our pearls when they don't seem to be able to treat others humanely.

    Lose a job, lose a house, lose a spouse, lose your mind.  Find out "the system" isn't interested in helping you?  Play by the rules and still get the short end of the stick?  We're all on simmer, and it doesn't take much to reach "boil."

    Throw in some mental illness and all bets are off.  

    It isn't just that we live in a violent society, we live in one that seems increasingly unfeeling and uncaring and blind to those who need help.  

    More gun laws will be about as helpful as more band-aids on a hemorrhage.  How about making sure people have enough to eat, clean clothes to wear, a safe place to call home, an education, job training, mental and physical health care - not insurance, but actual care?

    Oh, wait, that would be just too, too radical to even consider, because in this United States, if you can't do it on your own, you don't deserve it.


    Have to disagree with this. (5.00 / 4) (#96)
    by Dr Molly on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:37:00 PM EST
    More gun laws will be about as helpful as more band-aids on a hemorrhage.

    Data from other countries compared to this one contradicts this statement, Anne.

     

    How about making sure people have enough to eat, clean clothes to wear, a safe place to call home, an education, job training, mental and physical health care - not insurance, but actual care?

    This is not mutually exclusive with stricter gun laws.

    Parent

    Do those other countries have (none / 0) (#121)
    by Anne on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:22:32 PM EST
    strictly national laws, or are they, like the US, crazy quilts of laws that range from no laws at all to very tough laws?

    State laws, federal laws, local laws - we're all over the place, aren't we?

    And I agree that taking better care of people does not have to exclude laws that better protect them from others, but it just seems to me that we don't do a very good job of enforcing the laws we already have, where we have them; passing new ones always makes people feel better, like they're doing something - until the next major incident, and then it starts all over again.

    Parent

    anne's "malaise" speech : ) (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:43:59 PM EST
    There's a nasty cold going around, and (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Anne on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:16:49 PM EST
    I fell victim to it last week; I have no doubt my physical malaise is having an effect on my mental state...

    I was totally out of the loop on the Arizona shootings in real time, and in trying to get up to speed, feel like I'm reacting to the reactions more than I am reacting to the incident itself.  All this talk about who said what and which rhetoric is worse and who's condoning it and who's inciting it seems, in some ways, just so pointless to me.

    Like I said, people are killing each other, hurting each other, every day, and it gets reported so matter-of-factly that it takes something bigger, with more "important" people involved, for it to make an impression on people.  

    I live north of Baltimore, and spend every workday in the downtown area - the nice part of town where the tourists go.  The local news generally leads with the latest killing/stabbing/shooting/incident of child or domestic abuse/drug raid/house fire/carbon monoxide poisoning - unless there is snow in the forecast, of course, in which case, they go into full Doomsday mode.

    It's probably the same everywhere, to some extent, but I guess that's why I'm sort of annoyed at how important it is to people to blame this latest tragedy on a particular flavor of politics, as if being able to do so actually solves anything.

    It doesn't.

    Oh, here I go again...maybe I will pop a Hall's and a couple Advil and spare you the rant...


    Parent

    Um (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:30:53 PM EST
    it was an attempted political assassination.  People tend to care a lot about political violence.  Or any violence that is performed upon someone solely for one reason (sexual orientation, race, politics).  In fact, some might call this event terrorism.  We tend to care a lot about that too.  I'd suggest you learn more about the event, about the suspect, and about the Congresswoman.  The reason people are drawing political conclusions about it is that it was a POLITICAL EVENT.

    There's no lack of good writing on this.  

    Parent

    THANK YOU (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by The Addams Family on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:38:22 PM EST
    a simple enough point, it seems to me

    i see 2 kinds of misunderstanding on this thread

    1, that this was simply the act of a "lone gunman" & should not be "politicized"

    2, that it was a political act but "the left does it too"

    there is also a small subset of commments correctly, imo, pointing out that the shooter is entitled to presumption of innocence & that we do not know enough about the shooter's motives for anyone, least of all a court of law, to determine yet why Cong. Giffords was a target

    Parent

    So what? Why is a possible attempt (none / 0) (#175)
    by Anne on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:10:26 PM EST
    at political assassination more important or more deserving of attention than the killing and injuring of ordinary people by other ordinary people that takes place every day, day after day, often at the hands of people they know?

    Answer: it isn't, really.  

    Why is it more important or more meaningful that a political figure was possibly targeted than that ordinary people take other ordinary people's lives into their hands every single day?  

    And let's say, for the sake of argument, that if it is far more meaningful to try to kill political figures, what, exactly, does pointing the finger at one end of the political spectrum do for the whole thing?  

    Nothing.  Or at least nothing constructive.  Are you going to stop people from saying stupid things?  I kind of doubt it.  Can you guarantee that something that sounds innocuous to 99% of people won't sound incendiary to someone with mental problems or anger issues, or some such thing?  No, you can't.

    Of course people should be more responsible in what they say, what they do, how they act, and be willing to be accountable for themselves.  I'm frankly sick of the constant goading that goes on, in the media especially, by people who do it for one reason and one reason only: ratings, which means money.  Which is why I don't watch a lot of media anymore, because it sickens me to see how brazenly they try to manipulate people.

    And it's why, once I heard about the incident, I chose not to tune in to see a parade of serious-faced talking heads trying their hardest not to look too thrilled that they had a major tragedy to report on, because that's what these things always become.

    Here's the thing, though: if this man is as troubled as it appears he may be, the most rational political discussion you could have would be about the politics of mental health; the rest of it is just noise.


    Parent

    Completely disagree (5.00 / 2) (#178)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:21:01 PM EST
    and I find it hard to believe that you actually believe this:

    So what? Why is a possible attempt (none / 0) (#175)
    by Anne on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:10:26 PM EST
    at political assassination more important or more deserving of attention than the killing and injuring of ordinary people by other ordinary people that takes place every day, day after day, often at the hands of people they know?

    If you want to discuss the media angle of all this, fine, but there is a lot more to this than the media angle.  If I have to explain to you why political assassinations are deserving of attention, well, I can't, because...I'm speechless.

    Parent

    The life of a politician does not have (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Anne on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 04:07:22 PM EST
    more value than the life of the guy who lives down the street from you; there may be more symbolism wrapped up in the politician's life because of his or her job as a representative of the people, but the life itself is not inherently more valuable.

    It may well be meant to be an attack on the nation - please don't think I don't get that, I do - but my point was that maybe if we spent more time addressing the problems down here at the ordinary people level, others would not feel compelled to try to take out political figures to draw attention to whatever their cause is.

    I think you've likely been reading my comments long enough to know that I am neither unintelligent nor ignorant nor cavalier; I found it jarring to see the attention the Arizona shootings are getting juxtaposed against the ho-hum way in which we pretty much treat the day-after-day-after-day violence that takes place all across this nation, triggered by a long list of things, with rhetoric being pretty far down the list behind poverty, lack of education, poor mental health, homelessness, drug use, physical and/or mental abuse, domestic problems, job loss, home loss and so on.

    Sure, what some politician said might trigger someone to action, but if every politician immediately became a disciple of Miss Manners, I doubt there would be a noticeable decline in day-to-day violence, even if their own hides might be more secure.

    We are looking at this from different angles, and while I understand why you think this is so important, I'm not sure you understand that I also think it's important, but for different reasons.  We're not improving people's lives anymore, and until we realize that we should be, there isn't going to be much lessening of anger in this country.


    Parent

    Of course (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 06:22:26 PM EST
    I don't believe that the life of one person is inherently more valuable than another.  But I think you are broadly undervaluing the political dimension of this attack.  "Blaming the tragedy on a particular flavor of politics"...a politician was shot at a political rally!  As digby says if he wanted to shoot a right wing nut there's no lack of them in Arizona.  The last Congressperson shot while in office was shot in 1978.  It's not like this happens all the time.  And, oh, coincidentally mainstream figures on the Right have been using a menacing tone for the past 2 years.  Also coincidentally the person shot was a Democrat.  How did that happen?

    There is in fact good reason to draw attention to this issue.  You seem to be arguing the average person is frustrated, so we need to fix that to prevent this kind of thing happening.  I agree with that (it is a sociological argument, as are the arguments that this is related to right wing violence, directly or indirectly).  Still, I think that's a far more abstract stretch than saying "I bet if we toned down rhetoric against Democrats/liberals [like the late Dr. Tiller] right-wingers won't kill Democrats/liberals."  There is so much documentation out there about right wing extremism in the age of Obama  (list here).  I just think you can't dismiss it out of hand.  

    Parent

    The killing of any human is a tragedy (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:52:46 PM EST
    Your point that there is a kind of epidemic of homicide (etc.) is accurate, I believe. Yet, there is a difference when assassination of a political figure is concerned. Not that the life of a more powerful person is more important. Of course, it isn't.

    It is the context. Political assassination threatens society's stability...our government and ourselves. That is the perception historically in this country and in other countries. A merger of reality and symbolism, perhaps. In many ways, it may be the most pronounced version of what has beome known as a hate crime.

    Why does the threat reverberate and cut so deep? I don't know. Maybe it is the harshest chilling effect to realize that those who are elected to represent us, to be our government, can so easily be killed or shot. Maybe it reaches back to tribes, clans, the gathering together for protection. It may be something as fundamental as Maslow's scale (overall physical security need.) I do know this: The repercussions are quick, personal, and may even be longlasting. As always, its the "longlasting" possibility thats up-in-the-air.

    Parent

    Yeah, kind of... (none / 0) (#142)
    by sj on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:50:18 PM EST
    ... but I still found myself reading it with a rhythm.  Truly awesome as poetry.

    Parent
    With very little editing (none / 0) (#93)
    by sj on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 12:28:44 PM EST
    This comment could be turned into some awesome slam poetry.

    Parent
    Anne droppin' science... (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 05:45:17 PM EST
    I had alotta similar thoughts runnin' through my head...thoughts hard to express, that such acts of this have a lot more to do with the modern age and specifically the modern America than it does a few right-wing hatemongers and the current political climate of the last 2-3 years.

    This poor Congresswoman Giffords and the other victims could have been easily been the cool kids at school, the school board, the government, the other...whoever is the font of rage for the violent madmen this society/modern world helps produce...I don't know.  

    Parent

    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by lilburro on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 01:40:08 PM EST
    to waldenpond for the info in this thread about the weird conspiracies the suspect believed in.  Digby has been good on this too (as usual).  She links to this list of violent incidents and quotes Nancy Pelosi from last year:

    "I have concerns about some of the language that is being used because i saw this myself in the late 70s in San Francisco, this kind of rhetoric. ... It created a climate in which violence took place. ... I wish we would all curb our enthusiasm in some of the statements and understand that some of the ears that it is falling on are not a balanced as the person making the statements may assume."


    To me, the issue is not hateful individuals (5.00 / 7) (#152)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:20:03 PM EST
    or individuals making hateful comments--both are unfortunate, but both are constitutionally protected.  The concern is the institutionalization of hate as a foundational belief system of a political movement.

    Hate becomes a latent trait with hidden symbols and codes so as to gain and maintain power.  The trait may begin as a part but unchecked can capture the whole. Inflammatory rhetoric is spewed not apart from the movement, but as a part of it.  And, not by  isolated intemperate statements of individual adherents, but as an accumulated polemic  and culture where there are no political opponents, just enemies.

    Such demagoguery is accepted and legitimized. And, it is not unfathomable for the emotionally labile to latch onto fragments of the hate manifesto and transfer them into behavior they believe was being called for and just needed a hero to carry them out.

    Parent

    On the "institutionalization of hate' (none / 0) (#168)
    by christinep on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 02:49:22 PM EST
    KeysDan: Can you talk a bit more about the pathway to the "institutionalization of hate" as part of the political belief system? I think that your summary above is fascinating, outstanding.

    My image is of a powerful segment (the political structure) snared in an eddy into Dante's inferno. (Maybe over-the-top in terms of my personal reaction.) To explore a bit how this happens and useful steps to de-escalate growing political threats would be helpful. Where do you think the system entered that "institutionalization of hate" level or has it?

    Sidenote: Two de-escalation type items from today include (1) TPM's list of "refrain from" phrasing suggestions & (2) David Sirota's repeated apology on behalf of himself and the media industry for the provocative push of recent years. (While Sirota certainly has never urged nor condoned violence, when he took a step on his morning radio program to say that responsibility for provocation can be deeper than the obvious, I gulped and stopped and listened. He didn't need to apologize for any particular provocation of which I am aware; yet, he took a simple and powerful deescalation step.)

    Parent

    I think the institutionalization of (5.00 / 3) (#180)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 03:26:23 PM EST
    hate can take different pathways. Deliberate, such as the "Southern Strategy" midwifed by Lee Atwater for Nixon, or "Happy Happenstance", such as a superficial campaign slogan (government is the problem touted by Reagan) that catches on and has legs.  Death panels might be another example.  The goals are the same, create or capitalize on a menace that changes the subject and deflects  from resolving problems all in the service of achieving power in and of itself.

    The institutionalization of hate can be noted, in my view, when there is no internal correctives or controls. No responsible counter voices, either out of fear or because of agreement.

    While not in the same category, an illustration is the condemnation of the liberal  Move On.org by not only Republicans (as you would expect), but many Democrats, including its leadership, for the full page NYT ad referring to "General Petraeus or General Betray Us."  Or, the near censure and tearful apology of Congressman Pete Stark for his remark that President Bush enjoys troop deaths.  The point being that such remarks may be made by individuals, but they are not acceptable or legitimized.  

    By contrast, Sharron Angle's  curious, at the least, "Second Amendment" comment was not even questioned as to what she meant by it.  Indeed, she received support from leaders of her party.  The golden rule, subsequently, gets turned on its head and the followers feel acceptance do unto others what we would not want done to ourselves.

    Parent

    If ind the left's reaction to this event (3.50 / 2) (#185)
    by Slado on Mon Jan 10, 2011 at 04:12:41 PM EST
    appalling.

    We have no idea why this maniac did what he did and far too many on this site, in the media and in the blogoshpere appear all to ready to use this tragic event to justify their political feelings.

    It could be a complex conspiracy theory or as simple as a public event he could take advantage of.

    I do find it ironic that the rush to judgement on this shooting is a complete if not perfect 180 from the reaction to the Ft. Hood shootings.

    In that case the "left" bent over backwards to deny an obvious motive.  In this case they seem to be doing the same to force one onto the shooter.

    He will wake up, he will go to jail and we will one day learn his motives.

    Till then chill out.  

    It is a tragedy.  Just like the guy who shot up the TLC building was a tragedy, just like Ft. Hood was a tragedy and just like Columbine and a whole host of school shootings where tragedies.

    Sometimes tragedies are just that, tragedies.   If we really want them to stop we will have to do a whole lot more then muzzle right wing talking heads.

    But you already knew that.