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Venezuela Slouching Towards A Police State

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:00:44 AM EST
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This is disturbing news from Venezuela:

President Hugo Chávez has used his decree powers to carry out a major overhaul of this country’s intelligence agencies, provoking a fierce backlash here from human rights groups and legal scholars who say the measures will force citizens to inform on one another to avoid prison terms.

. . . The new law requires people in the country to comply with requests to assist the agencies, secret police or community activist groups loyal to Mr. Chávez. Refusal can result in prison terms of two to four years for most people and four to six years for government employees. “We are before a set of measures that are a threat to all of us,” said Blanca Rosa Mármol de León, a justice on Venezuela’s top court, in a rare public judicial dissent. “I have an obligation to say this, as a citizen and a judge. This is a step toward the creation of a society of informers.”

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    Venezuela Slouching Towards A Police State | 66 comments (66 topical)

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    But he will continue to intoxicate his (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:02:52 AM EST
    "progressive" benefactors with cheap oil.

    He is a thug, of course.

    "movements" (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Stellaaa on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:05:17 AM EST
    Are scary things.  

    The far left (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by madamab on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:11:24 AM EST
    and the far right always seem to produce dictatorships of some form or another, don't they?

    An extremist of any stripe should never have control of a government.

    If only Americans understood this (none / 0) (#24)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:11:31 AM EST
    principle the Republican Party would not be what it is today.

    Parent
    They scare the hell (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:30:29 AM EST
    out of people and then tell them they'll keep em safe. Forever and ever. It's the oldest game in town.

    Parent
    The only difference (none / 0) (#26)
    by PamFl on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:25:40 AM EST
    between Chavez and Bush/Cheney/Rove is that they've done the same and called it the "War on Terroism" in the name of "National Security" for the preservation of Democracy.
    The unitary powers are all in place. It remains to be seen if Bush will use them to suppress freedom in our country or if he will allow these powers to go to the Dems in Nov.
    We shall see.

    Parent
    Good points. (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:47:10 AM EST
    I was really refering more to the fact that American's tolerance for wacked out representatives with extremist ideologies has increased over the years which in turn has changed the Republican Party - a lot.  There used to be some trully "ok" Republicans in the House and Senate.  Tom DeLay saw to it that, particularly in the House, moderate Republicans were purged.  And people kept voting for the extremists for a long time seemingly unaware of how dangerous extremism really is.

    Parent
    I'd like.... (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:31:17 PM EST
    a freedom extremist in power.

    Then again, freedom extremists don't thirst for power.

    Parent

    well, yeah, they do. (none / 0) (#38)
    by cpinva on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:53:20 PM EST
    Then again, freedom extremists don't thirst for power

    here they call themselves "libertarians". unfortunately, they even manage to mangle the concept of freedom, taking it to such a degree as to effectively create anarchy.

    personally, i'm not into anarchy, it's not good for business, or other living things.

    chavez is a thug, as much of a dictator as saddam. this is merely another manifestation of the paranoia common among the type.

    Parent

    If freedom extremists.... (none / 0) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:01:04 PM EST
    thirst for power then they are still very thirsty, because I don't know one place on earth where freedom extremists are in power.

    If Bush and Chavez represent archies...I'm ready to try anarchy.

    Parent

    Argentina is not (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Gabriel on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:14:56 AM EST
    a very good example. They are worse than Venezuela in many respects.

    Chile, though, should be an example for all Latin America.

    No (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Gabriel on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:32:14 AM EST
    Not really. The economic growth is due to either recovery from the brutal 2001-2002 crisis or higher agricultural prices, neither having anything to do with Kirchner.

    Inflation has skyrocketed but the government keeps lying about it, although no one believes them. It's running close to 30% now.

    Graciela's approval has crashed in the last couple of months due to how she has handled the current crisis with the agro sector.

    And price controls have led to very low investment in many areas, specially energy, so now that it's winter down there people and companies don't have gas for their homes and factories.

    The only think keeping the country together is the still very high prices for soy and other Argentine exports. If that changes Argentina will go thorugh another of its periodical crisis.

    (sorry for duplicate post, I responded to the wrong comment elsewhere)

    Parent

    Chavez' next step may be to photocopy . . . (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by wurman on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:20:39 AM EST
    . . . the USA Patriot Act, ram it through a somnambulized legislature & implement it.

    "Freedom's just another word for
    Nothing left to lose . . .
    Nothing ain't worth nothing
    But it's free . . . ."

    Kris Kristofferson & Fred Foster--"Me & Bobby McGee"
    bush spies (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by melonhead on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:48:53 AM EST
    Don't I recall, during the early days of the Bush administration (after 911), a move similar in nature to the Chavez move. Something like encouraging citizens to keep a close eye on their neighbors and report them if the appear to be doing anything  "suspicious".

    That's only cuz (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:52:17 AM EST
    a few good ole boys thought they saw Mullah Omar in Denneys. Nothin' to worry about. Caint happen here.

    Parent
    Provide a link (none / 0) (#20)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:58:14 AM EST
    please.  If it was stated, Jail was not threatened if neighbors was not watched.  But Ayers luvs Chavez.

    Parent
    Do you need a link (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:03:23 AM EST
    about the number of people who've been tortured and then released?

    I guess one man's police state is another man's price-of-democracy, eh?

    Parent

    Provide a link (none / 0) (#22)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:06:11 AM EST
    stating that the evil gov't asked citizens to watch other citizens.  

    Parent
    You Mean Bush's Terrorist Surveillance Program? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Dan the Man on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:19:16 AM EST
    TSA

    Parent
    Wiki is (none / 0) (#65)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:06:58 PM EST
    a good source?  LOL
    Where is the jail time for not watching your nieghbor?

    Parent
    Links (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:13:20 PM EST
    Here and here

    Parent
    Simon Romero (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:59:49 PM EST
    And the Grey Lady, needs to be taken with a pound of salt when it comes to 'hot zone' reporting. Simon Romero is about as neutral as Michael Gordon, from what I have read, iow their reporting may as well be State Department press releases.  

    You would think that if the situation was exactly as Romero reports, he would be arrested or ousted from the country, no? He is not a supporter of Chavez, to say the least, yet he remains free to report from Caracas where he is based, as the Andean bureau chief for The New York Times.

    Do you propose any remedy? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Salo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:09:47 AM EST
    It's hard to see one that doesn't involve bombing Caracas in the next ten years.

    Please no. n/t (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by inclusiveheart on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:10:24 AM EST


    Parent
    Good question to ask our (none / 0) (#14)
    by ruffian on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:33:24 AM EST
    presumptive nominee.  If he is taking questions these days.

    Parent
    We sit on our hands (none / 0) (#19)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:56:15 AM EST
    Let Chavez be, he is digging himself a good hole right now.  

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#54)
    by MKS on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 02:43:23 PM EST
    That would be a disaster.  That type of threat is what Chavez uses to garner power and support.  

    The history of U.S. intervention in Latin America is a bad one that all Latin Americans know full well and resent to their core.  Thank God, Dean Acheson put the kaibosh on the attempt to topple Guatemala's government in 1952....of course the Dulles boys under the Republicans pulled of the CIA coup in Guatemala for real in 1954--and bad things have happened ever since.

    This idea of taking out governments we don't like didn't work so well in Iraq.

    Bombing Venezeula is a page out of the Republican playbook.  Pat Robertson has advocated assassinating Chavez--that just strengthens Chavez's hand by playing into Venezuelan nationalism.

    Parent

    See what happens when you follow a (none / 0) (#7)
    by AX10 on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:19:24 AM EST
    "cult of personality".
    Chavez is a scumbag.  

    The job of spin doctors (none / 0) (#16)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:48:58 AM EST
    and media consultants is to do little else BUT create mini-personality cults.

    Of course, these things only happen somewhere else.

    Maybe it's time we (democratically) instigated another coup and propped up a Pinochet, or a Shah over there.

    Parent

    So Hugo Chavez Is Not a Good Guy? (none / 0) (#9)
    by BDB on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:21:07 AM EST
    I'm shocked.  

    No (none / 0) (#11)
    by Gabriel on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:30:19 AM EST
    Not really. The economic growth is due to either recovery from the brutal 2001-2002 crisis or higher agricultural prices, neither having anything to do with Kirchner.

    Inflation has skyrocketed but the government keeps lying about it, although no one believes them. It's running close to 30% now.

    Graciela's approval has crashed in the last couple of months due to how she has handled the current crisis with the agro sector.

    And price controls have led to very low investment in many areas, specially energy, so now that it's winter down there people and companies don't have gas for their homes and factories.

    The only think keeping the country together is the still very high prices for soy and other Argentine exports. If that changes Argentina will go thorugh another of its periodical crisis.

    Ooops (none / 0) (#13)
    by Gabriel on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:33:04 AM EST
    Wrong place for this comment, sorry. Please delete/ignore the above comment and this one.

    Thanks

    Parent

    Police State (none / 0) (#17)
    by judyo on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 10:51:47 AM EST
    America too

    Anyone (none / 0) (#28)
    by bocajeff on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 11:39:12 AM EST
    Anyone who thinks that TSA or Patriot Act is anything even remotely like what Chavez is proposing is either full of Republican hate or naive. This is a slippery slope argument that anyone can get into and does nothing to advance a point of view.

    Chavez is REQUIRING its citizens with jail term if they do not COMPLY with the requests it makes.

    What's more totalitarian? (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:03:00 PM EST
    Invading a sovereign nation and precipitating a chaos that leads to hundreds of thousands dead, maimed, traumatized and uprootet -- while all the while allowing nefarious contractor friends to loot the treasury; or, what Chavez is doing?

    Republican "hate"? Effing right.

    Parent

    Actually, (none / 0) (#33)
    by bocajeff on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:37:55 PM EST
    You answered your own question. If I live in relative freedom even as my government behaves atrociously then I am, by definition, not living in a totalitarian country.

    One has nothing to do with the other. Let's put it another way. Would you rather live in a totalitarian country that doesn't invade other countries or live in a free country that does? Only two options, which do you choose????

    Parent

    Free Country (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:50:49 PM EST
    But a the freedom is on a sliding scale based on color, wealth and religion. Besides if our government was being attacked within our borders by the same kind of political activists that we are supporting in Venezuala, many of those activists would be in jail right now. Yes in jail, even if Hillary or Obama becomes president.

    Parent
    Franklin Roosevelt (none / 0) (#43)
    by bocajeff on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:15:42 PM EST
    impriosoned over 100,000 men, women and children and seized their property because of internal threats. The difference is that Chavez isn't doing this because of internal threats - he's doing this because he is totalitarian to begin with. When WWII was over things here reverted.

    Parent
    He Has Not Jailed (5.00 / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:21:31 PM EST
    Simon Romero, has he? And if you do not think that our State Department is not working,  24/7 to overthrow Chavez, I have a bridge to sell you.

    Parent
    Double Negative Trouble (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:23:00 PM EST
    But you know what I mean....

    Parent
    Totalitarian to begin (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:37:31 PM EST
    with.

    And, of course, if any of the Venezualans disagree with you, what do they know?

    All repression here is always justified and totalitarian everywhere else. Your formula is so consistent and simple -- that's the beauty of it.

    Parent

    "Only two options" (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:30:32 PM EST
    Isnt how things work in the real world. Obviously it dosnt matter to you what happens until you're directly effected yourself. In which case, what business is it of yours what goes on in Venezuela?

    Parent
    You're right... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:43:54 PM EST
    it's a little different here.  Here in the bosom of liberty the man has to catch you with a bag of plants first, or some other crime in name only, then it can demand you inform on your friends to stay out of a cage.

    Parent
    Kdog (none / 0) (#35)
    by bocajeff on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:48:29 PM EST
    Yes, but we have the rights available to change the law. Just because our politicians don't have the spine to do is another problem - but the mechanisms are in place.

    In your scenario you have already broken the law - which I agree with you shouldn't even be a law - but that's a big difference.

    Parent

    Fair point.... (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:03:47 PM EST
    We re a little better off...for now.

    And to think I liked Chavez when he first came on the scene...boy was I wrong.  It really is the same sh*t all over, to varying degrees of stank.

    Parent

    No, (none / 0) (#42)
    by bocajeff on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:12:15 PM EST
    We are a lot better off. We just have to remain vigilant.

    Having this dialogue will get you jailed in some countries without any due process.

    Parent

    Nah.... (none / 0) (#47)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:23:40 PM EST
    I still say just a little....we have a nation of informers too.  When is the last time anybody got convicted of anything without the state utilizing a snith, a rat, or an informer?  It's an epidemic.

    Besides, there isn't a media source around that will give ya the straight dope.  I doubt it's as bad as the Times makes it sound, or as necessary as Chavez will make it sound.  Without being in Venezuela I really have no clue.  But I am in America, and I'm all too familar with how we do.  

    Parent

    The "mechanisms" (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:20:42 AM EST
    being in place has little relevance as long as theres unequal access to them.

    Parent
    Every time I begin to think of the denizens of TL (none / 0) (#36)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 12:49:22 PM EST
    as progressives, a thread like this comes along along to remind me that many are Marxist-Leninists.

    Nice try (none / 0) (#55)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:18:40 PM EST
    tailgunner Joe. Agreeing that Marx was right about SOME things dosnt of necessity make you a "marxist leninist".

    Every once in a while I read one of youer posts and am reminded of what Lenin said about people who'll sell their mother on Monday to make a profit on Friday.

    Parent

    Simon Romero is a US citizen. (none / 0) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:22:58 PM EST


    So What? (none / 0) (#48)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:24:32 PM EST
    Did anyone say he wasn't. Not sure of your point.

    Parent
    Your premise is that (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 01:55:41 PM EST
    because he has not been arrested the situation cannot be as he reports. I submit that his lack of arrest does not disprove what he reports because, among other things, he is a US citizen.

    Parent
    US Citizen In A Police State? (none / 0) (#50)
    by squeaky on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 02:28:08 PM EST
    If this US citizen is free to write uncensored from Caracas, it is not a police state, imo.
    Mr. Chávez, who has insisted the defeat will not dampen his ambitions to transform Venezuela into a Socialist state, said the new law was intended to guarantee "national security" and shield against "imperialist attacks."

    He lashed out at its critics as being agents of the "empire," meaning the United States.

    The law's stated aim of protecting Venezuela follows a history of antagonism between the governments in Caracas and Washington, dating at least from the Bush administration's tacit support for a short-lived coup against Mr. Chávez in 2002.

    [snip]

    "Effectively this is a way to instill fear in NGOs and news organizations and parts of society that remain outside the government's reach."




    Parent
    "Slouching toward" (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 02:36:52 PM EST
    is, I believe, what we're discussing. It think it's accurate, as much as it pains me to agree with BTD on anything.

    Parent
    LOL..... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:20:01 PM EST
    It pains me too...but when you're right you're right:)

    If you ask me, the entire globe is slouching toward a police state...England is especially scary these days.  Old man PPJ has done a couple posts on his blog about how England has gone police state batsh*t crazy lately.

    Lady Liberty is very lonely these days...it's like nobody loves her anymore.

    Parent

    Big Tent Democrat and most of the rest here (none / 0) (#51)
    by SoCali on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 02:30:11 PM EST
    I am guessing, don't know much about Latin America in general or Chavez/Venezuela specifically other than what is fed to them be the MSM.
    It is also the case that our CIA is running amok in Latin America throwing cash at every right-wing organization hoping to thwart the democratic process that has seen most of Latin America move to the Left. Because that may not be enough, our government has decided to threaten and possibly use military force. For the first time in five decades we are sending in the Fourth Fleet: http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3427
    Sound familiar? We back a corrupt regime in Columbia -- the only solid Bush/right-wing ally left in Latin America--  to the tune of billions of dollars, they invade sovereign countries as is the recent case of Ecuador to stir up regional conflict, the "intelligence services" manufacturer ominous evidence and away we go...
    With this post and most of the comments, I find support for this misguided policy.

    May I humbly suggest some reading material:
    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/
    http://vensolidarity.net/
    http://www.borev.net/

    There is no shortages of information to become more knowledgeable, parroting the right-wing/corporate agenda is lazy and worst, contributes to a fundamentally unsound and immoral policy towards our neighbors.

    So what do you disagree with? (none / 0) (#57)
    by CST on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:26:08 PM EST
    BTD made a statement about Venezuela, not the U.S.  It is possible to disagree with Chavez without promoting U.S. policy in Latin America.

    Frankly, I think the U.S. backing the extreme right only helps the extreme left.  However, disagreeing with U.S. policy doesn't change the fact that Chavez is in fact a dangerous dictator who is removing the rights of his citizens.

    Extremism is a problem in both directions.

    Parent

    The only thing Chavez (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:51:52 PM EST
    is doing wrong in the realpolitik world is not playing ball with Wall Street.

    Chinas record of repression and human rights violations makes Chavez's look like The Rule of St. Francis, but you wont hear about it here.

    China has Walmart and that makes up for everything.

    Parent

    Well, the assertion that Chavez is a dictator (none / 0) (#61)
    by SoCali on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 03:53:30 PM EST
    For starters, Chavez has been democratically elected several times now in internationally sanctioned elections. His popularity hovers around 60%. So by definition you are wrong on that point.
    Then by labeling Chavez as an extremist because he rejects the continuation of U.S. corporate control of Latin American resources is neither accurate nor helpful.
    I can only guess you are not familiar with the developments in Bolivia, Ecuador, Chile, Argentina etc. Ecuador is poised to throw out the U.S. base there.
    Our government along with the corporate media is making a boogey-man of Chavez just like we always do to justify military action. The 2002 failed U.S. backed coup in Venezuela is another example of the same failed policy. The CIA is very actively trying to undermine this democratic leftward tilt in Latin America. They side with the worst elements there.
    Do you think mobilizing the Fourth Fleet after 50 some years and parking it off Latin America is anything more than a precursor of things to come?
    Please, read a little history, get current with developments, don't parrot corporate talking points on these exciting and long overdue developments in Latin America. And certainly reject the idea that the U.S. should undermine democratically elected governments.
     

    Parent
    Wait a second (none / 0) (#62)
    by CST on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:02:40 PM EST
    I label him an extremist because he threatens to send anyone to jail who doesn't turn in their neighbors.  Not because of what he thinks of the U.S corporate control of Latin America.

    I actually am familiar with those countries, and history, way to be condescending.  Last I checked though, this was a thread on Venezuala.  

    You are right, he isn't a dictator, bad use of language.  He did try to turn himself into one though, and it didn't pass.  Props to him for sticking with the vote.  That doesn't make him a good man.

    Parent

    You have to wonder (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:09:41 PM EST
    whats behind the obsession with Chavez when there are so many grosser examples of repressive regimes around the world.

    Never mind that we just agreed to ship tens-of-billions in weapons to the country that provided 17 of the 9/11 hijackers and that still chops off women's heads with rusty swords.          

    All Hugo need's to do is learn to play ball better.

    Parent

    So (none / 0) (#66)
    by Wile ECoyote on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 06:11:35 PM EST
    far you have had no problem with people being threatened with jail for not watching their neighbors.  A few eggs must be broken for international socialism.

    Parent
    The 2002 coup attempt (none / 0) (#52)
    by MKS on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 02:35:01 PM EST
    backed by Bush and Otto Reich did not help.

     The best way to undermine Chavez would be to have Condi Rice fly to Mexico City and give a big speech on Latin America.  She should say how the U.S. respects the sovereignty of all Latin American countries, and specifically Venezuela, and that we will not ever interfere in the internal politics of, or try to topple, any government in Latin America, including the Venezuelan government.  If Bush had done this years ago, Chavez would have lost his ability to drum up internal support by scapegoating the U.S., and his reasons for needing so much power would have been even more exposed as frauds.

    Of course, the recent revelations on  Chavez's support of those trying to bring down Colombia's government make things more complicated.....

    The U.S. needs to abandon its paternalistic efforts to get rid of Latin American governments it does not like.

    It does make him the democratically elected leader (none / 0) (#64)
    by SoCali on Tue Jun 03, 2008 at 04:40:57 PM EST
    Just say no to the U.S. and CIA undermining of democratically elected governments.
    Once the new law is made public, it may be helpful to compare it to our own Patriot Act. Were the men and women who voted for that "good?"
    As Interior and Justice Minister Ramón Rodríguez Chacín pointed out, "The creation of new intelligence organizations responds to the urgent need to confront interference by the United States in the internal affairs of Venezuela" http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3505
    As the June 1, election shows, Chavez has support:
    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3515
    In that article, "According to the results of a recent survey by private opposition-oriented polling firm, Keller & Associates, the pro-Chavez movement counts on 57% support nationally. The same poll showed 28% support for a united opposition."

    Why would we continue the same failed policy of subverting democratic governments? Could it be Venezuela's oil and Latin America's natural resources our corporations have exploited for the last century?

    So you see, it is at a bare minimum simplistic to engage in name-calling and passing judgment on Intelligence Services overhaul-- especially since the law has not even been made public yet-- when our level of understanding is not even near conversant.


    When it's only a war (none / 0) (#67)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 04, 2008 at 11:15:11 AM EST
    on SOME dictatorships, it dosnt take a rocket scientist (as they say), to smell a rat.

    Parent
    Venezuela Slouching Towards A Police State | 66 comments (66 topical)

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