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How To Read Polls: Part . . .

A few state polls to analyze. First SUSA's Missouri poll that has McCain up 7. the demos are whites (86% of the electorate) for McCain 55-37 and African Americans (12% of the electorate) for Obama 89-8. In 2004, Missouri went for Bush by 7, with Bush winning whites (77% of the vote) 58-41 and Kerry winning African Americans (11% of the vote) 88-11 (Latinos were said to be 8% of the vote in Missouri in 2004, a figure I find impossible to believe frankly, and Kerry won them 53-44.)

Here's my thinking, African Americans will be more than 12% of the electorate in Missouri and Obama will carry 95% of them, making this a closer race than 7. But still, this is a lean McCain state. More

The Q poll polls a number of states, and not surprisingly to me, Obama basically has Minnesota and Wisconsin put away. But I find the Colorado and Michigan numbers worth considering"

. In Colorado Q has Obama by 5 with the following breakdowns:

White voters split with 47 percent for McCain and 46 percent for Obama as Hispanic voters go Democratic 62 - 36 percent. Obama leads 53 - 45 percent with voters 18 to 34 years old and 49 - 42 percent among voters 35 to 54. He gets 47 percent of voters over 55 to McCain's 45 percent.

Q does not provide demographic LV models so it is hard to make heads or tails of this but to compare to 2004, Bush won Colorado by 5 (100,000 votes to be exact). Bush won whites (86% of the vote) by 56-42, and Kerry won Latinos (8% of the vote) by 68-30 and African Americans (4%) of the vote by 87-13. I think it is fair to expect that the percentage of non-white voters in Colorado will increase over 2004 and Obama will win 80% of the total. Let's assume Obama holds Kerry's 42% of the white vote, but that whites are reduced to 82% of the electorate and Obama wins 80% of the non-white vote, now 18% of the electorate. That would get him to a little over 49% of the vote. He needs to do just a bit better with white voters than Kerry in this scenario to win Colorado. I think he will do it.

In Michigan, Q has Obama up 6 over McCain. Q says:

Michigan women voters back Obama 52 - 38 percent, while men split with 46 percent for McCain and 45 percent for Obama. White voters back McCain 48 - 42 percent, as black voters support Obama 89 - 6 percent. The Democrat leads 57 - 36 percent among voters 18 to 34 and gets 48 percent of voters 35 to 54, to McCain's 45 percent. Obama has a 45 - 42 percent edge among voters over 55.

In 2004, Kerry won Michigan by 3. Bush won whites (82% of the vote) by 54-44, Kerry won African Americans (13% of the vote) by 89-10 and Latinos (2% of the vote) by 62-36. It is safe to assume that Obama will win 95% of the African American vote in Michigan and that the vote will expand to about 15% of the electorate imo. Let's assume whites will be 80% of the vote and that the other 5% goes 3-2 for Obama, then Obama only needs to capture 42% of the white vote in Michigan to win. Obama can and should win Michigan, but it is close. But he should do as well as Kerry did with whites in 2004 which should lead to Obama holding Michigan.

My bottom line? While it remains fun to dream of winning North Carolina and Georgia and it is great that Virginia is close, Obama shuts the door on this election by holding Michigan and Pennsylvania and winning Ohio. McCain has no winning map without winning two of those 3 states. Unlike some, I do not believe Florida is in play for Obama.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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  • Display: Sort:
    What makes (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:33:03 PM EST
    you think that Obama can appreciably do better with minorities in CO? I can see the case you are making in MO for it being closer than the polls, however, I think he will probably do Kerry's numbers or worse in MO. CO looks to be a likely loss with Obama's numbers mirroring Kerry's there.

    The problem I think that Obama has is that while he may increase AA turnout that may not make up for the loss of white support in lots of states.

    The more I see these polls, the more it looks like a repeat of 2004. Obama has no chance in FL or any of the border states. I'm not so sure he's going to do well out west (NV, for example) either due to the fact that McCain is from a neighboring state.

    Obama is ahead in every Colorado poll (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:49:13 PM EST
    The West is good for Obama....

    Obama will do well with younger voters in Colorado which has gone blue over the last few years....It has a Democratic Legislature and Governor, and will have two Democratic Senators with the election of Udall who is ahead of the wacko Republican he is running against.

    Obama will do better than Kerry because:  (1) there are more Latino voters, (2) the state has trended Democratic, (3) Republicans everywhere are not very popular, (4) Western voters like Obama--his overt religiosity will help with younger Evangelicals in Colorado, and (5) the Democratic Convention in Denver won't hurt...

    Parent

    Latino vote (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:50:20 PM EST
    is not guaranteed to Obama.  Latinos are not loyal to any party - they switch back and forth, depending on candidate.

    Parent
    Nothing is guaranteed (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by Veracitor on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:55:10 PM EST
    But Obama is creaming McCain at this point in time - somethhinglike 66% to 27%.

    Parent
    Obama would be wise (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by stxabuela on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:00:36 PM EST
    not to ignore Hispanic voters.  I believe that Hispanics support Obama by better than 20 points, but it's a soft support.  That means a lower Hispanic voter turnout.  If the race gets close, motivating Hispanic voters becomes crucial, especially in the Southwest.  

    Parent
    Dunno (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Eleanor A on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:16:19 PM EST
    Tennessee also has a Dem governor and state House, and 5/9 of its Congressional members are Dems...

    And Obama will lose here by 15 points at least.  What works at the state level doesn't always at the Fed.  You've still got a lot of gun-totin' whities out there.

    Parent

    In Colorado (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:44:47 PM EST
    you also have a lot of environmentalists.....Boulder is very, very liberal.

    You do have Evangelicals and Mormons but the state is not much like Tennessee.  

    Parent

    Won't he get into trouble (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Democratic Cat on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:49:25 PM EST
    by appearing to turn right? It's not that the liberals will vote for McCain, but it may cause some of them to stay home if they see Obama as same-old-same-old.

    After all, Kerry was clearly more liberal than Bush, yet Bush beat him.

    Parent

    No. (none / 0) (#104)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:53:37 PM EST
    The way Democrats win in Colorado is to run as a centrist.  See Ritter, Bill and Salazar, Ken.  

    A more recent example is Udall.  He is running away from his reputation as a "Boulder Liberal".  

    Parent

    Very well put MKS (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:00:11 PM EST
    I would add that Bob Barr is likely to steal more than a few votes away from Mc3rdTerm in Colorado.  

    Parent
    And (6) Obama is a westerner (none / 0) (#31)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:56:42 PM EST
    if he can work harder at not coming off as an easterner.  (Those ads that impute that he comes from Kansas, i.e., that he was a midwesterner before moving to Chicago, ought not be run in the far west.  Does he have ads there that have him as a westerner?)

    Parent
    I understand, actually. . . (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:00:09 PM EST
    that nobody has done more for the West than Obama.

    Parent
    Attributes, sensibility--not origin--matter (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:18:16 PM EST
    He is more from Hawaii than anywhere...and according to those who are from there or have worked there, he is very much influenced by that culture...

    You don't understand the West....We don't hold it against someone, and actually like people, who come from or have Kansas values....

    People in the West are far less tribal than those elsewhere....People here come from everywhere.  Kansas, Mexico, New York, The Phillipines and on and on....The West values innovators; experience, not so much....

    Parent

    I disagree, or perhaps agree, (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by tree on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:01:16 PM EST
    with a big caveat, about Obama and the culture in Hawaii. I grew up there, a few years ahead of Obama. I suspect that growing up there simply exacerbated his feelings of not belonging anywhere.

     There were very few blacks in Hawaii at the time. Most that were there were associated with the military and apparently Obama didn't have any significant interaction with any black culture there. At the time even the white(haole) culture was not as dominant as the Asian American culture was, so even connecting with his shared white culture wasn't an automatic given for him there. (Although Punahou did have a rep as being a school for stuck up haoles.)

     So I don't see him relating easily to the culture there, and combining that with growing up with his grandparents, I think it makes want to connect but also makes it harder for him to deeply connect with any culture. I don't see him at all as epitomizing the culture in Hawaii, but in some sense being a product of it none the less.

    As for Westerners, being one, I say that in general most of them don't mind the Mid West but there are definite biases against Easterners that are prevalent.    

    Parent

    His sister Maya (none / 0) (#74)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:28:04 PM EST
    seems very Hawaiian to me....Perhaps because she is half Asian....

    My wife who was born in Honolulu and worked there says Obama's smile is very Hawaiian....

    Parent

    Funny, because she did most of her (none / 0) (#86)
    by tree on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:02:13 PM EST
    growing up in Indonesia, right, even though she lives in Honolulu now?  

    Can't speak to the smile. I've never viewed a certain smile as being particularly "Hawaiian". But Obama definitely doesn't have any of the speech patterns prevalent in those who grew up there, and his bearing is much too stiff to have been a product of growing up there.

    Parent

    Now that you mention it, a friend (none / 0) (#97)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:32:09 PM EST
    from years ago, a guy who studied here but came from Hawaii -- part Hawaiian, part Japanese -- was the most easygoing guy I ever have met, a real marvel.  And yes, he did not have any of that hesitation or other parts of Obama's speech patterns, at all.

    As for the smile, I'm not sure how physical features can be tied to Hawaii, when Obama is not at all Hawaiian or Japanese or Chinese or etc. . . .

    Parent

    Easygoing, yes. (none / 0) (#106)
    by tree on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:57:33 PM EST
    There are lots of locals with Caucasian or Japanese ancestry in Hawaii, but 99 times out of a hundred, a local could pick out a tourist, from US or Japan, in a heartbeat. It wasn't physical features: it was the easygoing attitude that distinguished locals from the tourists.

     

    Parent

    Indonesian women have the most beautiful smiles (none / 0) (#139)
    by laurie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:36:39 AM EST
    in the world. IMO

    Parent
    Interesting, as my mom was from Washington (none / 0) (#50)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:26:57 PM EST
    where there and in Oregon, I have lots of relatives who are incredibly tribal about it to this day.  So I think that I have some understanding, from my mom who talked about it all the time and had me read many a history book about the far west for our many trips there and decades of talking with folks there.  

    I would agree re California, as I have relatives there from the midwest who just seem a bit lost -- at least in LA.  But a relative from California and now in the Midwest seems, if far more adjusted to it, to still bring up California in quite a number of conversations to differentiate herself from just about anywhere else in the country.

    Parent

    People from San Francisco (none / 0) (#53)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:41:28 PM EST
    love their city--it is called "The City" in the Bay Area--which tends to confuse New Yorkers.....

    From the standpoint of someone from San Francisco, the gauchest thing one can do is refer to "The City" as "Frisco," and I don't think I have even heard anyone talk of "SF"--but "LA" works--a gauche town deserves a gauche nickname I suppose.

    So, you have "LA" and "Vegas" but always, always "San Francisco"....

    Parent

    Ha! I think you just disproved your own (5.00 / 0) (#63)
    by tree on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:08:43 PM EST
    statement that Westerners are less tribal. The tribal wars out here in California are more centered on north and south. Northern California versus Southern California. Speaking as one of those "gauche" LA people, I'll admit that the attitudes of superiority run both ways.

     

    Parent

    But it doesn't matter where you are from (2.00 / 0) (#72)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:23:21 PM EST
    just as long as you observe the correct code.....

    Obama speaks Westernese:  Change is a great word to use....

    Parent

    i shall take LA, (none / 0) (#90)
    by Molly Pitcher on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:18:14 PM EST
    thank you, (having lived in Altadena and Menlo Park).

    Parent
    ...were a large group of Iowans.  People in Washington don't mind Midwesterns, it is the Californians that they don't like.  

    Parent
    That's what I get -- and many Wisconsinites (none / 0) (#94)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:29:05 PM EST
    were early settlers in Washington, including ancestors of another part of my family, who were in the lumber trade so left after the "Cutover" here -- having cut down the forests of northern Wisconsin to then go wreak devastation on the "new" Northwest, as we call it here in the first Northwest.  They were the respectable relations.

    But my mom's folk descended from a wild Wisconsin woman who actually up and divorced her husband here in the '80s, so she just about had to head west with her wagonful of daughters . . . one of whom married into yet another side of the family there who were miners, the wild "Molly McGuires."

    It really got interesting a century or so ago for those settlers, as women got the vote in Washington and got to write back to their relatives in Wisconsin about it . . . since Wisconsin women didn't get full suffrage until 1920.  Some letters I've seen were quite tribal about the far west, as it were -- very condescending to the backwards folk back here. :-)

    Btw, the condescension continues from my relatives who left here for California -- and also continue to treat us as if we are hicks who haven't learned a thing or read a single newspaper since they left.

    Parent

    Condescension is probably (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by tree on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 05:09:33 PM EST
    an accurate description for the attitudes of some out here. It wasn't really surprising that the "bitter/cling" comments were made to a wealthy audience in SF.  

    Excuse me, while I go duck for cover before MKS lands on me for daring to abbreviate. ;-)

    Parent

    I have no idea what city (none / 0) (#116)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 05:49:27 PM EST
    you are talking about.

    Parent
    The settling of the PNW... (none / 0) (#100)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:41:41 PM EST
    ...is a most interesting study.  It boggles the mind to think about making that trek and coming to all of these place that are so very different that were they were from.  And the difficulties encountered on along the way.

    I'm always in awe of the sheer physical beauty when I'm out there. The winter rain, not so much.

    Parent

    Huh? (3.66 / 3) (#36)
    by Veracitor on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:03:56 PM EST
    I believe the ads communicate that he's solidly American, and not Indonesian, Muslim, etc.  

    Clinton was the only one of the two that aggressively tried to establish roots by whatever opportunity was available.  I was surprised to find out that she's a Pennsylvanian - in addition to Arkansas, New York, and Chicago.

    But hey - whatever works for you.

    Parent

    Vera, you have got to be kidding. C'mon (4.42 / 7) (#47)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:22:32 PM EST
    Obama has been a Hawaiian in Hawaii and Guam, a westerner in Washington and Oregon, continues to milk Kansas like a cow even though he never lived there and his mother hardly did, and he even went back to her family's old homestead in Indiana, where he never had been, to make himself a midwesterner -- while he works the Hahvahd airs in the East.

    The only thing he hasn't claimed to be is a Southerner -- but for that, he sent out Michelle to talk about her family's roots in South Carolina.

    Really, get real.  You're just wasting bandwidth.

    Parent

    Wrong (2.00 / 0) (#82)
    by Veracitor on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:53:29 PM EST
    Obama has mentioned in speeches that he has roots in areas where he's speaking, but only Clinton transformed herself into a native in multiple places.

    Maybe that's why she lost.

    By the way, we can do without the personal attacks.  Wasn't it you that asked me how old I was?  

    Parent

    A great example (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by sj on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:29:59 PM EST
    of what BTD was talking about in this post.

    When Obama does X, it's right and noble.  When Clinton does X, it's base and deplorable.

    Obama "mentions in speeches", Clinton "transforms" herself.  

    Your guy won.  Get over it.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#93)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:27:43 PM EST
    The only thing he hasn't claimed to be is a Southerner

    "Committed to Christ, Called to Serve"?  Ain't from these parts.

    Of course, the ability to be all things to all people is indispensable in modern politics.

    Parent

    You can also (none / 0) (#102)
    by pie on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:47:40 PM EST
    run the risk of being nothing to some.

    Parent
    Cream....you mean with obama wearing (1.00 / 0) (#84)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:56:01 PM EST
    a stetson while riding a horse?  :)

    Parent
    Or a tie while riding a tractor? :-) (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:35:39 PM EST
    lol.....good one! (none / 0) (#126)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 07:45:32 PM EST
    Yes, I do agree with you about #6 (none / 0) (#46)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:21:23 PM EST
    (3) is the bit that counts <eom> (none / 0) (#137)
    by FreakyBeaky on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:33:13 PM EST
    I'm no longer this pessimistic (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:35:25 PM EST
    When the polls consistently show you ahead, you're ahead. Things could change, but Obama has the upper hand now.

    Parent
    I heard someone say (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by bjorn on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:39:55 PM EST
    at this point, "McCain can't win, but Obama could still lose."  In other words, Obama is looking good right now and has all the momentum.  I think that is true.  McCain has to hope Obama screws up big time or something external happens that could change the dynamic. But Obama is the frontrunner for sure.

    Parent
    Dick Morris (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:52:00 PM EST
    (not that I think he's anything other than a skank btw) has said that the party that can't win the election has nominated the only candidate who can win and the party that can't lose has nominated the only candidate who can't win.

    Parent
    Hate to agree with Dick Morris (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by lmv on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:46:58 PM EST
    but I do.  

    I refuse to read most of the left-wing press/blogs (other than TL) because they can't see Obama's weaknesses or McCain's strengths.

    Obama has had a moderate bounce but he is running behind a generic Democratic presidential candidate.  That means, ANY other Democrat would be higher in the polls than he is.  He should be doing much better than he is.

    Parent

    Um, no (5.00 / 0) (#110)
    by nr22 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 05:12:33 PM EST
    Obama has had a moderate bounce but he is running behind a generic Democratic presidential candidate.  That means, ANY other Democrat would be higher in the polls than he is.

    Um, no, that is not what that means.

    When pollsters ask about a "generic" candidate, without any name attached, people are free to imagine their perfect candidate. That's why "generic" Democrats and Republicans usually do better than specific candidates in polls.

    It most certainly does not mean that ANY other Democrat would be doing better than Obama. All candidates bring a unique set of strengths and weaknesses to the table, and Obama is doing just fine.

    Parent

    McCain will need to go negative (none / 0) (#11)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:42:45 PM EST
    He doesn't have a huge gap to close, honestly.

    Parent
    And pick a solid VP, preferably (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:44:27 PM EST
    a female or minority.

    Parent
    He'll need to excite his base, though (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:46:28 PM EST
    He's got a needle to thread.

    Parent
    With Obama's cowtow on (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:49:08 PM EST
    national security and right to bear arms, seems to me McCain's cred. only increases.

    Parent
    The polls say what they say (none / 0) (#26)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:51:57 PM EST
    True, but do the polls reflect (5.00 / 0) (#37)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:04:09 PM EST
    Sen. Obama's most recent statements?

    Parent
    I've learned to live with the fact (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:05:37 PM EST
    that no poll is up to the instant, and very few independent events can change the numbers that much.

    This race has been steady for a couple of weeks.

    Parent

    I suppose it really is true Dems. (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:15:58 PM EST
    have no one else to vote for.  

    Parent
    I keep waiting for the "most recent (5.00 / 0) (#117)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 06:02:31 PM EST
    statements" to derail Obama--since about January....Hasn't happened yet.....

    I think the next big event will be the VP picks/conventions....There is no reason why Obama should not do as well if not better than McCain on that score.

    Then, the debates.....

    McCain has chances, but he is not campaigning on the weekends;  and he has already had almost 4 months to get his act toghether (since he effectively knocked out all serious competition).....McCain looks stuck.....and the clock is ticking.....  

    Parent

    Or Obama will have (none / 0) (#28)
    by MichaelGale on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:52:28 PM EST
    as many Republicans voting for him as Democrats.

    The new rule is 'bipartisanship' you know.

    Parent

    Yeah, but how many Dems (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by Eleanor A on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:17:12 PM EST
    will bolt for the GOP.  I think that's just as valid a question.

    Parent
    you might see repubs cross over in the (none / 0) (#151)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:33:02 PM EST
    primaries but not in the general. won't happen!

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:47:35 PM EST
    when the people who did the poll say that Obama is in the exact same place Kerry was 4 years ago, it doesn't breed much optitimism with me. Or did I fall asleep for 4 years and there actually was a President Kerry?

    Parent
    That's a releief. (none / 0) (#9)
    by Lil on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:41:45 PM EST
    Has there been ANY good news. . . (none / 0) (#12)
    by LarryInNYC on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:43:52 PM EST
    in the polls for McCain?  And "McCain with 20 points in Texas" doesn't count!

    Parent
    Gallup is back to tied (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:45:28 PM EST
    SUSA had Oregon close, and Ras said Ohio was tied. Other than that, not really.

    Parent
    Frankly (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:49:45 PM EST
    I really don't see much good news for either. If you're either candidate do you want to be tied with the opposition in the mid forties and not breaking 50% in swing states?

    Parent
    an associated press poll says (none / 0) (#92)
    by hellothere on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:27:19 PM EST
    obama wins over half of clinton supporters. no surprise there! it is the other half the campaign needs to worry about i think. associated press has also been a disappointment this campaign. i automatically discount anything they publish sad to say. in a world with no disputed and a campaign that most felt fairly fought, obama should have the great majority. in a razon thin final finish, it can make or break a win.

    Parent
    So then I guess (none / 0) (#129)
    by mbuchel on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 09:37:19 PM EST
    we can't trust the stat they reported about the number of Clinton voters going to Obama.

    Parent
    it correlates with some other (none / 0) (#131)
    by hellothere on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:10:41 PM EST
    articles i have seen. time will tell on how this will play out. no, i don't care for associated press. it doesn't say much when you see something news worthy on the net and assoicated press is reporting a week later.

    Parent
    tijeania, you are new here. instead of (none / 0) (#143)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:20:14 PM EST
    consistently giving low numbers when you don't like something posted, refute it with real information.

    Parent
    In the primaries ... (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:40:49 PM EST
    Obama did poorly in any state with a strong party organization against him.  He also did poorly in many states where only a part of a strong party organization was against him.

    Most of his victories came in states with little or no party organization.

    This will not be true of any state in the GE.

    And, for this reason, I think we need to be extremely bearish about Obama's GE chances.

    I agree with you on your premises, but not... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by oneangryslav on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:48:43 PM EST
    on your conclusion.  

    Because Clinton was the establishment candidate, she had the party machines working mostly for her. This is what put her well over the top in PA.  Those Dem political machines, which were getting out the vote in suburban Philly and Pittsburgh, were getting it out for Clinton.

    These party machines (organization) will be working in Obama's favor in the GE, which is why PA is not even going to be close.

    Parent

    I think you missed my point ... (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by Robot Porter on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:20:23 PM EST
    his weak ability to confront party organizations means he won't win any Red States and will be weak in swing states.

    This is not a recipe for victory.

    Parent

    PA will be close (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by kempis on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:25:56 PM EST
    Kerry only carried it by 2 points in 04 and Obama sells even less well in the T than Kerry did.

    Parent
    Not so sure (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:45:21 PM EST
    I agree with Robert about Pennsylvania, where I lived for 4 years.  Its population, including Dems, are far more conservative, i.e., averse to change, than the pop of states to the north, such as NY & NJ.

    Parent
    Right (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Eleanor A on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:12:51 PM EST
    Sorry, but your "party machine" analysis falls flat, considering the national Party (which pays some staff and has a lot of influence in states) was clearly in the bag for Obama from day one.

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#111)
    by nr22 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 05:14:25 PM EST
    Remind me again, which candidate had over 100 superdelegate endorsements before a single primary vote had been cast?

    Parent
    really? remind then who had (none / 0) (#132)
    by hellothere on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:12:12 PM EST
    the democratic elders supporting and even pushing two states out the door in voting rights for one candidate over the other.

    Parent
    Nobody (none / 0) (#152)
    by nr22 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:39:43 PM EST
    Since that never happened.

    Parent
    saying doesn't make it so. (none / 0) (#154)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:15:28 PM EST
    excuse me but the dnc backed obama. you take care now!

    Parent
    Um, no (none / 0) (#155)
    by nr22 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 03:21:49 PM EST
    The DNC didn't back any candidate.

    Parent
    cheerfully i don't agree! (none / 0) (#156)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 04:35:31 PM EST
    OK. That's your perogative. (none / 0) (#157)
    by nr22 on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 07:12:07 PM EST
    just like the machines (none / 0) (#133)
    by sancho on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:13:47 PM EST
    cranked out the vote for kerry, gore, and dukakis. at least ohio is run by  dems this time around. that may be the dems' only shot. and strickland says at best 50-50 chance.

    Parent
    Re Wisconsin, (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:48:39 PM EST
    I hope it's okay to repeat some of the following from the open thread. I looked at the Wisconsin internals in this poll -- which does not often do Wisconsin, as I recall, so I'm still looking for our locals to do so . . . since this one had some signs for concern not noted in the summary, such as the very high numbers for McCain in metro Milwaukee, outside the city.

    The metro area, especially very conservative Waukesha County (just west of Milwaukee, fourth reddest county in the country in 2004, very populous from white flighters, fundy Christian) that arose since the primary to force the first AA on the state supreme court off the bench.  And, of course, the Wisconsin primary was before the Wright debacle and more.

    So without disclosure of the Q poll's turnout model, to see if it's based on primary turnout -- with the massive crossover of Repubs to Obama -- or is more reality-based, I would not consider Wisconsin "put away."  A state that isn't much for change but loves "mavericks" could become a lot closer.  Again, we will get a better look when we can look at local polls of the closest state last time.

    Mark my words- (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by kenosharick on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:16:25 PM EST
    Wis. will be very close. Less than 3% I bet. I still think McCain will eke out a victory there.

    Parent
    i checked the 2000 census records (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by cpinva on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:49:05 PM EST
    for missouri. blacks constituted 11.2% of the total population. why do you think they'll constitute 12% or more of the total electorate in 2008?

    as well, i think everyone, as usual, is overestimating the impact of the 18-34 vote. every 4 years, a great hue and cry is raised about them, and every 4 years (unlike the swallows returning to capistrano), they fail to emerge from their caves to actually vote in the GE. i expect this year will be no different.

    & Latino vote in Missouri (5.00 / 0) (#59)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:55:04 PM EST
    were 1% of eligible voters in 2004 & now 4%, according to Pew Hispanic.  This sector could determine vote.

    Am I the only one who thinks, based on the most recent state polls (not to mention my gut), that Obama must have Hillary on the ticket to win?
    Who else might bring in:
           Latinos
           Working class whites
           Those concerned about Obama's relative inexperience on national security
          and many holdout Hillary supporters
    and
    all at the same time?

    Parent

    Sometimes those swallows flake also. (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:50:35 PM EST
    I like the trend (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by Veracitor on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:55:11 PM EST
    Being up in the polls is - even at this early point in time - is much better than being down.  As in the primaries, Obama is showing that he has good political skills and a superior campaign organization.  

    McCain is looking more and more like Bob Dole.

    Agreed (5.00 / 0) (#33)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:58:30 PM EST
    The fact that McCain's people are willing to talk about the Dole comparison is a bad sign for them. They know they've got problems.

    Parent
    it's a (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:08:03 PM EST
    set up. They do this thing every election year. Woe is us. The Dems are going to win while they are secretly setting up 527's etc. If they were talking like they were going to win I would be more concerned. The one who talked like he was going to win was Dole.

    Parent
    that will also get the repub base stired up (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by hellothere on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:29:21 PM EST
    for mccain.

    Parent
    It's not just what they say, (none / 0) (#41)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:09:54 PM EST
    it's their actions.

    So for their TV ads have been good, but the campaign has otherwise been a mess.

    Parent

    are you saying (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Turkana on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:05:56 PM EST
    florida, georgia, and north carolina are irrelevant? pshaw!

    Wouldn't (5.00 / 6) (#51)
    by tek on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:35:33 PM EST
    it be nice if Democrats had been allowed to choose the candidate they truly wanted.  The candidate who was running significantly ahead of McCain in all the polls.  But now we have parse words and slice and dice the poll results to try and convince ourselves Obama is going to win by a landslide!

    This election is so sad.  We went to our first meeting of our local Democratic Club last night.  For years I've waited to live where we would have a good Democratic organization to work with.  Now, I have to go and hold my tongue and be a passive member because there's no way in heck I'm ever voting for Obama.  What makes it worse is that we're in Florida so our vote won't matter however we cast it.  Obama threw Florida away.

    SurveyUSA polls (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:09:21 PM EST
    Two things I noticed from the crosstabs of their recent polls:

    * Obama loses support when respondents are asked about potential v.p. match-ups--even McCaskill as v.p. shifts more people to "undecided" in the MO poll, and that's her home state.

    My question: Will his poll numbers go down in some of these states after he picks someone for v.p.?

    * The gender gap between Obama and McCain voters, while traditional in party voting patterns (more men vote Republican, while women usually vote Dem), is pretty big in polls in MO and OR, particularly OR. (Fortunately for Obama, women vote in greater numbers.)

    My question: While he might be picking up support from women who supported Hillary, is he losing the men who supported her?

    The SUSA veep-test polls also tend ... (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by RonK Seattle on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:40:56 PM EST
    ... to overestimate his support in the head-to-head bracket (no veeps names on either side).

    His AA support also falls to 60%, 50% or less in some veep combinations, for no clear reason in no clear pattern.

    Take these with an extra grain of salt.

    Parent

    AA's in some of the national polls... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:13:36 PM EST
    ...had the strongest support for Hillary as v.p., if I recall: over 55 percent in one (might have been the last Pew poll).

    I really wish the SurveyUSA had asked about an Obama-Clinton ticket when they asked about the other v.p. choices.

    Parent

    McCaskill is not all that popular in MO (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:49:26 PM EST
    Don't expect the conservative Dems in small town and rural MO to back Obama just because Claire is a strong supporter.

    Parent
    and she's not that popular with women (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by lmv on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 05:03:46 PM EST
    If Obama picks a woman to be VP other than HRC, it will be viewed as a slam to her supporters.

    He's in a no-win situation of his own making.

    Besides, what would McCaskill or Sebilius really add to the ticket?  If McCaskill's ground game is as good as she claims, she should be able to get out the vote no matter what.  I doubt Sebilius can deliver Kansas.  And, neither has much appeal nationally.

    Parent

    DA- same experience here (Georgia) (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by kenosharick on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:19:37 PM EST
    I have talked to a number of conservative men who were thinking seriously about Hillary- but are solidly mcain now.

    Parent
    Obscured in the furore (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by HenryFTP on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 06:40:19 PM EST
    over sexism in the campaign is how effectively Hillary connected with men, particularly those concerned about Obama's relative inexperience.

    Long derided (inaccurately) as the "Bubba" vote, these are the voters with whom Bill Clinton had greater success than any Democratic presidential candidate since Hubert in 1968. Hillary's mastery of the issues in the televised debates brought a lot of these guys into her camp. Unfortunately, these are voters for whom messages like "I don't do nuance" and "straight talk" are very appealing.

    Given the voting patterns since 1968, it is not surprising that the Obama team believes women will "come around", because they have tended to do the "right thing" when push comes to shove -- the men, however, are another matter.

    I don't think these voters will be much "impressed" by Obama's "stand" on the FISA Amendments bill -- they will be more impressed when the GOP lumps his change of view together with his changes on campaign funding and his pastor of 20 years, bearing in mind that the corporate Media continues to give McCain excellent cover for his numerous policy "flip-flops".

    If Obama can successfully tag McCain with the Bush economy, though, the so-called "Bubbas" might lean back toward the Democrats -- he'll still lose this demographic, but if he can emulate Clinton in putting a significant dent in the Republican lead, it could tip a number of close states.

    Parent

    The best way to get the Bubba vote... (none / 0) (#124)
    by Dawn Davenport on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 06:58:04 PM EST
    ...would be to put Hillary on the ticket and let Big Bubba campaign his heart out for it.

    Of course, that's looking less likely to happen these days, and I don't blame Bill if, as the rumor mill says, he's upset about having been painted a racist during the primaries.

    Parent

    Bubba vote (none / 0) (#140)
    by laurie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 09:47:50 AM EST
    In Florida it seems there was a big male shift to McCain after he announced off-shore drilling.

    Parent
    obama has picked up all the support (1.00 / 0) (#134)
    by hellothere on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:14:09 PM EST
    from women voters for hillary he is going to get. and the exact numbers? well, the media in my humble opinion will try and shout that down. they do like to create their own reality in my view. i believe if this has legs, we'll begin to see it down the road. and yes, i personally think it has legs.

    Parent
    hey tijeania, instead of giving 1s (none / 0) (#142)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:18:10 PM EST
    because i say that the unhappiness in the dem party has legs, why don't you come up with some ideas for real unity or even some RELIABLE poll numbers that can be trusted for accuracy.

    Parent
    read the rules! (none / 0) (#149)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    Early Summer Polls (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by Blogblah on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:19:48 PM EST
    These polls are, as is often noted, "snapshots" of the electorate.  However, the more we know about a particular point in time, the less we know about the velocity and vector of the electorate.  This far out, trends, it seems to me, are more important than particular polls.

    That said, RCP and 538 both see the state by state polls giving Obama an edge in the Electoral College and show Obama leads growing in MI, OH and PA and movement towards Obama in CO, NM, NV and VA where the polls place the candidates in MOE ties.

    Not much of this seems significant to me either way until after we know the VP choices.  In my view, neither candidate is likely to help himself very much with any of the names on public lists, but both candidates could make "bad" choices that can hurt them.  Gov. Richardson could help, likely, in NV, NM and CO and maybe even in Texas for Obama.  Romney could likely make things better for McCain in MI.  Could Evan Bayh help Obama in Indiana, a state that was +20 GOP in '04 but is showing a close race right now?  Would Pawlenty peel off MN for McCain?  The elephant in the room is Sen. Clinton and her effect on the electorate is certainly debatable.  Until those decisions are made by the candidates, these polls mean very little, IMO.  

    What rationale's left for Obama's candidacy ... (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by RonK Seattle on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:24:52 PM EST
    ... if he's not a map-changer?

    An 11 point national lead... (4.00 / 0) (#56)
    by mike in dc on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:48:34 PM EST
    ...one week before Election Day would be insurmountable, regardless of what happened that last week, bradley effect, etc.

    So he's sitting on a 7 point aggregate national lead right now, pre-Unity Event, pre-VP selection, pre-Conventions, pre-debates, and pre-major smear effort.  He probably needs to build his lead a little more, have a great convention speech, and head into the final 2 months with an aggregate 15 point lead post-convention to be near-certain of victory.  

    A landslide would be worth it just to see all the talking heads exploding on election night.

    In the post (none / 0) (#1)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:24:06 PM EST
    You have written 85 at one point when you mean 8%.

    SurveyUSA (none / 0) (#2)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:26:44 PM EST
    has Oregon close.
    Link
    But right now, the polls are a fun game, but otherwise have no meaning.

    Exactly....with obama's flip-flops and who (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:34:11 PM EST
    knows what skeleton may fly out of his closet, I would venture to say there are very few, if any, states really "put away" at this juncture.  Time will bear out who is correct on these predictions.

    Parent
    California is put away (5.00 / 0) (#10)
    by MKS on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:42:18 PM EST
    And, Iran has not been brought into play yet.... (5.00 / 0) (#25)
    by Aqua Blue on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:50:45 PM EST
    I keep hearing that Israel will attack Iran this fall and that Bush has secretly given his blessing.  

    That event would turn the election on it's head.

    Parent

    Not so much (none / 0) (#62)
    by miriam on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:05:28 PM EST
    if Obama has Wes Clark as VP.  Clark has been adamantly opposed to attacking Iran and he knows a great deal more about foreign relations and the military than McCain does.  The country might well follow the anti-war candidate(s) as this point.

    Parent
    i don't look for clark to be asked and (none / 0) (#145)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 12:36:03 PM EST
    if asked, i don't think he'd accept. i have read he already turned it down during the primaries with the understanding that he abandon hillary. he said no or so i've heard. it strikes me that the obama campaign might be hep on "loyalty" so that would rule clark out. futhermore i get the feeling he doesn't want it.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:45:16 PM EST
    considering the fact that Dukakis carried WI and MN, I think BTD is pretty safe in his assertion here.

    Parent
    In Wisconsin, Dukakis was before (5.00 / 0) (#29)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:53:37 PM EST
    the really soaring rise in power of the very conservative burbs around Milwaukee -- see the Q poll internals for "vicinity."  Since their rise in population and power, Wisconsin became the closest state in the country to turning red.

    Parent
    Thanks (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:57:38 PM EST
    for the explanation. I thought it was close in 2004 and that Kerry had to work to keep it. If he can't carry WI, it could mean the difference between winning and losing the election.

    Parent
    Yes, Kerry -- and Gore before him -- worked (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:19:29 PM EST
    very hard here to hang onto Wisconsin, and still, 2000 was close and 2004 even closer, with Kerry pulling less than half a percent ahead of Bush.

    Both worked Wisconsin's western "Mississippi coast," which proved crucial, as with the growth of the conservative burbs around Milwaukee, and especially between Milwaukee and Madison, those latter two cities are not sufficient anymore for Dems to win -- as, again, was shown with the recent loss of the first AA justice on the state supreme court.  So it has more conservatives than liberals now, which ought to be another warning sign about Wisconsin -- in addition, of course, to the "Willie Horton" style campaign against that AA justice (a good guy).

    Obama has not been to our Mississippi coast yet, far from Chicago, that I could see.  It went for him in the primary, but that was before the Wright debacle.  I think it will go for him again, but it will take work to keep it in the general election, without that huge GOP crossover for him in the primary.  (Esimates are that was close to 10 percent of the primary vote.)

    Parent

    Butler's campaign stank. (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ben Masel on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:39:57 PM EST
    Witness turnouts around 5% on and near campuses. There weren't even leaflets at the huge Obama rally in Madison.

    (I'm working with musicians on an independent effort, mostly run through MySpace, to keep Chief Justice Abrahamson on the bench in April '09. "Don't be treated like Moe treated Curly, Vote April 7th cause we gotta keep Shirley.")

    Butler had literally zero MySpace presence until I went to work the Sunday night before the election. I figure my lasminute effort turned out ~800 votes.

    Parent

    Butler's campaign fine in the big city (none / 0) (#119)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 06:11:50 PM EST
    but I'm done figuring out the new Madison that requires space on MySpace.  It's not attractive.:-)  Btw, I have heard that there were rebuffs of attempts to line up Butler support at the Obama rally -- and I've heard that from several different sources of the sort that make it sound reliable.

    Agreed re Abrahamson.  I'm signed on, and that will be one of my major foci.  We simply cannot lose her on the court, with that wingnut (not to mention historically unethical and censured for it) majority now.

    Parent

    Myspace in Wisconsin (none / 0) (#120)
    by Ben Masel on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 06:23:34 PM EST
    Doing GOTV for Louis, I didn't work it in Madison so much as posting on the pages of bands in places like LaCrosse. Plus messaging the 2,000 instate accounts who'd were my campaign's MySpace friends. All the 17 year olds who'd "friended" my campaign are 18 now.

    Parent
    PS I'm p[retty sure more of my 10,000 (none / 0) (#121)
    by Ben Masel on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 06:27:16 PM EST
    votes in Milwaukee came from my Myspace efforts than blogs. Tho I did get one pretty friendly story in the JS, and a good bit of radio.

    Parent
    He needed to get 419,581 votes. (none / 0) (#123)
    by Ben Masel on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 06:44:00 PM EST
    an't do that in "the big city" alone. His official campaign just said "I'm qualified" and the independent effort was all "Gabelman sucks." There wasn't a presence with a message of "Vote Louis to retain 4th and 1st Amendment Rights. This is the project I'm embarked on for Abrahamson.

    Parent
    10% crossover is not huge (none / 0) (#66)
    by tben on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:13:11 PM EST
    given that both parties routinely get that much or more of the other parties supporters in general elections.

    Parent
    Wrong, again, tben. Really (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 06:05:23 PM EST
    you cannot compare primaries and ge's on this.  Jeesh.  Not to mention that you have no idea of the history of crossover here, a complicated matter. . . .

    Parent
    In other words (none / 0) (#130)
    by tben on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 09:39:16 PM EST
    you want to say I am WRONG, but you have no real reason for saying so. I just have no idea of all the secret reasons why you are right...its all so complicated...

    Parent
    Gave you the reasons. Reread. (none / 0) (#135)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:51:25 PM EST
    1.  Primaries and GE's are quite different re crossover.

    2.  Look up, for just one example, crossover in Wisconsin in the 1964 primary, a classic . . . and with some relevance to this race, and especially after what the Wisconsin primary did in 1960.

    3.  Also look up some of the reasons for it, i.e., the rules for voter registration in Wisconsin, etc.

    If that is not now sufficiently spelled out for you, tben, you have revealed your motives here more than ever.

    Parent
    those are not reasons (1.00 / 1) (#138)
    by tben on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 11:35:32 PM EST
    General elections are different than primaries. Thats an observation, not an explanation of anything. How are they different? What makes the difference relevant to the issue at hand? Just pointing out that they are different says nothing.

    1964? Is that a joke? And this is relevant because of how it relates to 1960? You think you have no need whatsoever to flesh out this absurdity a bit?

    Look up some of the reasons for it? Once again, what do you think you are saying here. All I am hearing is that you have no clue as to how to make the argument. Its just like 1964, go look it up - is not an answer.

    You really think this is "spelling things out"? It looks like very empty handwaving to me...

    Parent

    The NRA has not yet gone to work here. (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Ben Masel on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:44:44 PM EST
    Mailers highlighting Obama's gun control record as a State Senator will cost him here, but he should survive. While Feingold hasn't gone to work on his behalf yet either, Obama's weak response to the FISA bill will reduce Russ' effectiveness on his behalf. The largest swing constituency isn't "moderate' independents, but libertarian ticketsplitters, ie the voters who backed both Russ and Bush in 2004.

    Parent
    Do you (none / 0) (#58)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:52:00 PM EST
    think Barr will make a difference there?

    Parent
    Not so much. (none / 0) (#67)
    by Ben Masel on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:13:53 PM EST
    Even the state's Libertarian party's not happy he was nominated. Every Wisconsin delegate voted for other candidates in all 5 ballots at the Libertarian nominating convention. There's been quite a few defections to the new Boston Tea Party, a breakaway by the left wing of the LP. With only 2000 signatures required, the BTP should be able to make the ballot here.

    Parent
    Ben is spot on with this (none / 0) (#136)
    by Cream City on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 10:55:48 PM EST
    I think -- the libertarian streak is strong in the state of Posse Comitatus.  At the extreme, of course.  But it suggests the streak that is more moderate but still significant.  Important to realize that the famed progressives really were not statewide but won strides with a coalition of socialists in the south and populists in the north.  Today, those contrary thinkers seem to be at home as libertarians -- I am always surprised by how many there are among students under 30, for example.

    Brought out by an issue close to their hearts here like gun control, if the state again is so close, they could swing it.  

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#35)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:00:55 PM EST
    Dukakis also carried WV.  That election was 20 years ago.

    I happen to agree with BTD on MN, and I feel pretty good about WI, but an election from 20 years ago isn't really much of a data point.

    Parent

    We'll see....nothing has been as it seems (none / 0) (#79)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:48:07 PM EST
    lately, so I will just wait and see.  BTW Ga6thDem....I like your spunk.

    Parent
    Agreed (none / 0) (#3)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 01:27:38 PM EST
    Speaking of how to read polls, Mark Blumenthal relinks to his 2004 series on weighting by party, which begins here. It is fascinating reading, and I'm actually now not sure where I come down on the subject. The only think I know is that Zogby gives a quote that proves he's an idiot.

    About reading polls (none / 0) (#49)
    by scribe on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 02:26:06 PM EST
    I think the "only" (or perhaps "most") reliable poll, such as it is, is the combination of all the polls into an agglomeration of what-they're-all-saying.

    This mutes the impact of wackos and inaccurate methodologies ("Mr. Zogby, call for you....") and lessens the impact of the disparate models of turnout, sample selection, sample size and all the other variables that can go in before the pollster starts manipulating the data.  

    Break it out state by state, if you want, but give me the Sum Of All Polls.

    If you want a "cool" name for it, call it the "Sigma" poll.  The capital Greek letter sigma is, after all, the symbol used in calculus for summing, i.e., to show an integration going on.

    Not only "cool", but accurate, too....

    Rasmussen on MSM-based polls (none / 0) (#78)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:45:51 PM EST
    Rasmussen and Gallup have both shown fairly stable polling trends for both candidates over the last month.  Rasmussen has Obama with a moderate (4-5 pts) lead and Gallup with a small or no lead (2-3 pts or tied).

    Their daily tracking raises questions about the fact that the big-name media polls -- NBC/WSJ, LA Times etc -- show huge leads for Obama.  Or, if not questions about the polls themselves, then questions why the results are so disparate.

    Much of the criticism of the media polls has been aimed at the oversampling of Democrats.

    Rasmussen today has an interesting article about why their (and Gallup's) daily tracking polls and methodology, esp. as applies to determining voter party identification, is the more dependable way to go.

    Most pollsters agree that party identification is one of the strongest indicators of how someone will vote.  However, they disagree about how to determine the right mix of party id and how much it changes over time:

    However, the challenge lies in finding the "right" mix of Republicans, Democrats, and unaffiliated voters. Some pollsters, including many academic and media pollsters, argue that partisan identification is fluid and changes frequently. This approach suggests that whatever partisan mix falls out from the results of a random sample is the "right" answer. In the case of the recent L.A. Times poll, this mix was 39% Democrats and 22% Republicans.

    Polls that use this approach tend to produce a more volatile set of results (during Election 2004, one national firm reported results days apart that showed more than a ten-point swing in voter preference).

    Others, including most political polling firms and Rasmussen Reports, argue that people rarely change their partisan affiliation (how many people do you know who consider themselves a Republican one day and a Democrat the next?). This approach produces more stable results.

    I have to say, I tend to check the daily polling outfits, and put more weight on them, than the one time media polls, just because unless their methodology is horribly flawed, trends over time seem more dependable than one-time shots.

    The problem with state by state polling, which is of course much more important now that EV are what counts, is that there's very little daily polling and (I'm guessing) less reliable party id numbers.  But if I were an Obama supporter, I'd take far more comfort from Rasmussen's stable but moderate lead for him than the one-shot high lead media polls.  Of course those one-shot polls are so much more fun to go into a big celebration over, but they're also more likely to lead to complacency (hello 2000 and 2004), esp. combined with the myth of the no-lose year for Democrats.

    And, sorry, this is getting long, but on that last point, riverdaughter over at The Confluence has some interesting thoughts on the one-shot polls and the psychological effects.  Disclaimer: riverdaughter is not among the group celebrating those one-shot big lead polls.

    The (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 03:52:50 PM EST
    big elephant in the room, imo, during this election is the fact that we have a minority running for office. Now, I know that the Dem primary polls were pretty accruate but I have to wonder if that accuracy extends into the general election polls? Maybe the polling is reliable in some states but not others? I tend to think that the race is going to be close but in the end there's no way Obama will end up carrying those new states like VA and CO. They weren't close enough in 2004 to warrant them going blue this year.

    Parent
    Polls (none / 0) (#105)
    by laurie on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 04:54:03 PM EST
    Polls which give a wide margin to Obama are  useful to McCain, as a GOTV tactic. McCain has problems with various Republican sectors, including the Evangelicals, but should he be perceived as in need they will turn out.

    What I can't understand is why the polls are consistently interviewing more Dems than Repubs. How far is BO's GOTV working? Are Repubs seriously turned off? Are there really that many more Dems than Repubs?

    I also agree that Obama is well positioned in Colorado.

    More Dems then Reps (none / 0) (#125)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 26, 2008 at 07:20:06 PM EST
    The reason the pollsters ask more Dems than Reps is because at the current time a far greater percentage of the population identify themselves as Dems.

    For example, Gallup found that 37% identify themselves as Democrats, 34% as Independents, and only 28% as Republicans (which may explain the consistent high 20's approval rating for Bush.)

    You can't split 50/50 where 50/50 split doesn't exist. Well you could but only if you want a totally flawed poll.

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    thx (none / 0) (#141)
    by laurie on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 10:10:34 AM EST
    Does that mean Dems will win easy?

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    please read the rules on here. (none / 0) (#148)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:05:31 PM EST
    this is jeralyn's site and her rules!

    let me add that i have seen jeralyn respond (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by hellothere on Fri Jun 27, 2008 at 01:19:11 PM EST
    in diaries to comments with particular reference to giving 1's. i don't see it in the rules for posting. i would recommend that perhaps you might email her and ask. that has been my understanding.

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