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Obama's New Smear Debunking Website

Barack Obama now has a webpage, Fight the Smears, debunking right wing smears concerning him and Michelle. He lists the smears, who is promoting them and details why they are false.

TalkLeft has banned discussion of the smears, particularly the one claiming there is a tape of Michelle using racially charged words, because there has not been a shred of credible reporting to back up its existence. There still isn't. But now that Obama has brought it into the open, our ban is pointless.

So, here's a place to discuss his new website debunking the false assertions about him and Michelle. One caveat: Personal insults against the Obamas or insinuations that the debunked items are true will not be allowed. In other words, you can't perpetuate the falsities. [More...]

I'm wondering if a website like this can make a difference. Normally I would say no, however I thought one feature on the site could make a difference. It allows readers to e-mail any particular debunk to others. So if, for example, a person was at work and heard someone claim one of the smears was true, he or she could have the debunk emailed to everyone they think might have heard it.

On the other hand, I wonder if people who are inclined to believe the smears would be satisfied with a statement from the Obama campaign as opposed to an independent source.

My second thought is on the birth certificate: I've received several e-mails over the past months from professional astrologers in response to this post, telling me they can't cast Obama's birth chart because they don't have his birth time. (Although I did find this one which used 1:04 AHST). The time on the birth certificate is 7:24, but I can't tell if it is am or pm. I assume the astrologers will blow it up and figure it out, and then cast his chart.

Third: How important is Michelle Obama in the presidential race? Would someone really not vote for Barack because they don't like her? I suspect focus groups and polling will redefine her role and make her much more likable in the coming months. Just as Obama grew as a campaigner over the past several months, I suspect she will too.

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    I think the initial effect... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by OrangeFur on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:29:30 PM EST
    ... will likely be negative, because now there are lots of news stories out there in which Obama denies [smear #1] or [smear #2]. A lot of people probably never heard either of them in the first place.

    I tend to agree that websites are generally unhelpful. They're not like TV commercials--people don't stumble on them unintentionally.

    It only lists four 'smears' (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:31:02 PM EST
    and it is odd the first is the Michelle Whitey tape smear.

    The entire site is odd.....very unprofessional (5.00 / 5) (#18)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:36:51 PM EST
    looking...reminds me of something a teenager might put up to fend off on-line bullies.  RE: his birth certificate...if he had only been born three years earlier, he wouldn't even need that site... :)

    Parent
    Why didn't they call it obamafactcheck (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:50:08 PM EST
    or something. Yes, the language and copy is very defensive and my first impression was it was written by a middle schooler. Probably it was created by one of his wunderkind staffers.

    Factcheck.org sets a more sober tone, not so defensive.

    Parent

    The stuff that comes across on Christian lists (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:58:18 PM EST
    are definitely intentional smears of Obama & Michelle.  It's not stuff where someone got the facts wrong.  

    Parent
    'Smears' is so schoolyard, too (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:06:49 AM EST
    Fact check would have been better, as "smears" implies a more juvenile obsession with rep and image. (Wahhh, someone said I was ...)

    The serve and return is the purpose, but just don't call it that and come off as pre-emptively hyer-sensitive.

    In passing, after an exhaustive search I finally nailed the sister that wrote "Ellie is a Fink" on a shared-gift boardgame. It was my beloved next sister, who masked her fiendish work by printing it out and casting suspicion on the next sister down who could print but didn't have the skill of handwriting yet. If only I had a Smear Site back when!

    Parent

    Which reminds me of the story my (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:29:06 AM EST
    ex used to tell.  His oldest sister carved the initials of the younger sister into the side of the maple TV cabinet.  

    Parent
    I thought the birth certificate rumor absurd (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:58:40 PM EST
    until kos posted an image of the birth certificate, but didn't link to a source. Thought that a little odd. Now it's on a "fight the smears" website. Something so funny about the name of the site.

    But I still think the birth certificate rumor is absurd.

    Parent

    Kos' document is not the BC.... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:06:04 PM EST
    ...it's something contemporary  (look at the style - that didn't exit in 1961) and looks to be the type of document you would get as a "certificate of birth" (e.g., to get a passport, etc.) but is NOT the birth certificate.

    Parent
    Really, what's the point of this? (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:07:24 PM EST
    Are you admitting you have (none / 0) (#169)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:29:56 AM EST
    no curiousity about Obama's horoscope?  However will you determine whether to vote for him?

    Parent
    It's a certificate of Live Birth (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by MonaL on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:14:20 PM EST
    the state of HI issues this as proof of birth.  I don't have a copy of my original birth certificate, I have one of these.  You're splitting hairs.

    And I saw that Obama was born at 7:24 p.m.

    Parent

    Needs a seal (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Andy08 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:08:37 AM EST
    or a signature or the original to get a passport. That one would not be enough to get your first passport.

    Parent
    It appears to be missing a lot of things (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:58:20 AM EST
    my BC from Georgia has including where he was born (hospital, doctor, street address, whatever) and just other little goofy details like that.  Mother's age or DOB.  Don't most birth certificates have more stuff on them than that one has?  That one seems awfully empty...  Seems there would be a signature or a stamp on it somewhere.  

    Parent
    Well If Obama's mother (none / 0) (#160)
    by talex on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:25:14 AM EST
    was an American citizen as he says she was then it does not matter where he was born. That is what is weird about this birth certificate thing to me.

    With an American citizen mother he could have been born in Portugal and still been an American citizen by birthright of his mother. So why not come forth with the birth certificate as others are saying here. His mother is his mother.

    Parent

    The birth certificate thing was to prevent (none / 0) (#108)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:39:00 PM EST
    this kind of stuff from being done.

    ;)

    Parent

    The point of the birth certificate (none / 0) (#213)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:12:35 AM EST
    is to remind voters that Obama is (in Pat Buchanan's phrase) "exotic".

    The GOP seems to be doing a Gabby Johnson act- "What did he say?" "The new sheriff is near".

    This is pathetic.

    Parent

    his bloggers are twentysomething year (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by thereyougo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:48:50 PM EST
    olds. Some of the commenters give their ages away by the silliness and vileness they spewed against Hillary.They just seemed  juvenile.

    They'd say stuff like 'she's evil' -- no reasons,just baseless meaness.Or when they were shouting for her to drop out of the race.

    I guess its what the Obamas are trying to head off. Funny how he never told them to stop, just towards the end when he finally said that Mrs. Clinton should stay in the race. How nice of him.

    He believes in the internet,so lets see how he can contain the 'smears' by addressing them early.

    Parent

    The burned a lot of credibility on Derangement (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:01:22 AM EST
    That collective idiocy about Bad Monster Lady "smearing" Obama by releasing already public documents of him in Muslim garb expediently fed the media CDS sport of being outraged -- OUTRAGED -- about Sen Clinton.

    In retrospect, outside the early thrill of the avalanche, the focus looks silly.

    As was noted here, it wasn't an anti-Obama smear if the pictures were truthful and public, but definitely a cheesy excuse to go after Clinton.

    I wonder who the media will peg as overly excitable, way too sensitive and perhaps too easily distracted by irrelevant static?

    Parent

    I miss Bad Monster Lady :( (none / 0) (#220)
    by kempis on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:37:04 AM EST
    I'm not sure how helpful the "contexts" provided for his out-of-context quotes from Dreams From My Father are.

    Dreams From My Father is a fine piece of contemporary, autobiographical, multiracial literature that would be great to assign college students.

    In a political campaign on the national level, however, it is a goldmine of "scary-foreign-stuff" for his opponents. They don't have to make it up, just rip out a few quotes and circulate them. The context does not make them less shocking to the vast numbers of people in this country who have not been trained to "situate" them in an academic context.

    I am truly curious to see if Obama can win in November with all of this baggage....

    Parent

    Does it look "heavenly" to you? (4.22 / 9) (#20)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:39:57 PM EST
    And the eagle that they use looks, well, I can't say what it looks like because I will get banned...but think 1942 in Germany.

    So just because this site declares something as "TRUTH" it's true.

    I.  Don't.  Think. So.


    Parent

    Yeah, that eagle hit me (none / 0) (#149)
    by FemB4dem on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:15:05 AM EST
    that way too.  Yikes!

    Parent
    I think that one is worth denying. (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Jerrymcl89 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:41:38 PM EST
    To me, if Obama's willing to say categorically that there can't be a tape like that, because she never said it, that's good enough for me (and I really haven't thought there was a tape anyway). The perception of Michelle is something his campaign needs to work on. Obviously, in denying it, he needs to be right, though.

    Parent
    I wouldn't have cared if there was one (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:55:26 PM EST
    I already don't like her attitude and it wouldn't have changed anything. But, if Obama ends up being wrong, that will really go against him. It would add to his judgment in people problem.


    Parent
    If the tape existed, would not make difference (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:03:08 PM EST
    we already saw the church tapes. If the entire congregation standing and clapping while Wright and Pfleger personally insulted Hillary for being white was not enough to derail his candidacy, some tape of Michelle will not either.

    Parent
    Oh? (none / 0) (#124)
    by talex on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:51:09 PM EST
    She doesn't even need to be smeared (5.00 / 4) (#58)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:06:14 PM EST
    She's not gracious in interviews and tends to pounce on opportunities to perpetuate or inflate already debunked slams against others. Example: her appearance on Larry King Live resurrecting zombie talking points about Sen Clinton AKA The Clintons being racists.

    No smears required. Just running a few minutes of her being herself during the campaign to take out Clinton speaks for itself.

    Parent

    Although I do find Michelle (4.50 / 2) (#97)
    by seeker on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:28:45 PM EST
    somewhat objectionable, I fear that all of us who attack her for her bearing, etc, may be falling into our own unconscious sexism.  And I am a Hillary supporter who will probably vote for Obama in the end.

    Parent
    I don't hold her gender against her (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:37:38 PM EST
    Her own statements and actions are self-evident.

    As a woman in the public sphere, she'll probably also be hit with attacks that are misogynistic.

    Parent

    see post #126 below (none / 0) (#140)
    by Rhouse on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:05:56 AM EST
    Missed that about Larry King (none / 0) (#70)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:12:53 PM EST
    I watched some of it but was so distracted by the fact that she rarely smiles that I didn't notice her say anything about the Clintons.

    Parent
    I always believed that she was more (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by hairspray on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:25:55 AM EST
    taken in by Jeremiah's anger than Obama.  That may be why she is so stiff and defensive IMHO.

    Parent
    the wording is very odd (5.00 / 2) (#195)
    by boredmpa on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:25:44 AM EST
    but it does say that she never used that word.  of course with the "why'd he" version of the rant it's also safe to say that.

    I'm also a little confused as to why they say this and then link to a schedule:

    "Michelle Obama was not on a panel, and the Rainbow Push Conference was at the Sheraton."

    She was at the sheraton and was a special guest, not a panelist.  Did she speak or not?

    Sheesh, if you're going to debunk something, don't do it halfway.  Otherwise you look like you're playing rhetorical chairs.

    Parent

    why is that odd? (none / 0) (#13)
    by bjorn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:32:35 PM EST
    Well - the smear was only on blogs (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:36:35 PM EST
    except when Bob Beckel, a Democrat and Obama supporter, appeared on Fox and spoke about the tape and he looked pretty worried. But the fight the smears website only mentions Rush Limbaugh and a blog, no quarter. And it mentions Roger Stone.

    Parent
    I suppose I shouldn't ask... (5.00 / 12) (#12)
    by OrangeFur on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:31:31 PM EST
    Does the policy of fighting smears extend retroactively to smears against Hillary Clinton? Because I can think of a candidate who promoted a lot of those.

    Something has rattled Obama. (5.00 / 6) (#53)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:59:21 PM EST
    Pre-emptive spin?

    Seems like that to me.

     It's not quite as neutral as the idea of the "War Room".  It's far more public, anticipatory, reactive. Indicative of his expectation of playing a defensive battle in the summer.

    Parent

    That's it - it strikes an odd tone (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:08:46 PM EST
    very un war room like. For example, what's the difference between a "myth" and a "smear". Oddly defensive language to not call these "myths".

    I heard he's moving the DNC to Chicago. Is that a smear? I would like him to debunk that because I really hope it isn't true.

    Parent

    If he's rattled, (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by indy in sc on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:13:21 PM EST
    it might have something to do with being the presumptive Democratic nominee and yet being forced to publicly release your birth certificate (or certification of birth) to prove you are a natural born American. It's just ridiculous that he should have to do that.

    Parent
    Why is it ridiculous. It is written in (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by zfran on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:17:34 PM EST
    the constitution that you must be born in this country to run for pres. Sen. McCain was born on an american base outside of the u.s., he has put forth his certificate. Not an out of line thing to ask of a candidate?

    Parent
    no it doesn't (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by tben on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:44:23 PM EST
    it says you must be a "natural born citizen".

    What that means has been argued, but it certainly does not mean you must have been born in this country.

    George Romney (Mitt's father) for example, was born in a Mormon mission in Mexico - but he ran a credible campaign for President and was a frontrunner for a while.

    Parent

    I think most reasonable people agree (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:45:30 PM EST
    that "natural born" means you've always been an American.

    Parent
    sure, obviously (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by tben on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:02:20 AM EST
    been an American since birth - but that doesnt necessarily mean born on US soil.

    Parent
    Why did you rate my post on te (none / 0) (#148)
    by lorelynn on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:14:35 AM EST
    reconnaissance mission a 1?

    Parent
    Since Obama Has a History (5.00 / 4) (#200)
    by creeper on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:42:43 AM EST
    of getting his opponents disqualified using "teh roolz" this would seem to be fair game.

    Parent
    Funny, (none / 0) (#92)
    by indy in sc on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:22:18 PM EST
    I don't remember any other candidate being asked publicly. I'm certain there is a background check process that goes along with filing the necessary candidacy papers with the FEC. If the FEC says he is an eligible candidate, that ought to be the end of the inquiry on technical qualifications.

    Parent
    The BC thing (5.00 / 3) (#109)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:39:00 PM EST
    did make me think about the stupidity about the tax returns.

    Of course, when she released them, there was no more  talk.

    Maybe turnabout is fair play, I don't know.

    Parent

    What about the Hue and cry about John McCain and, (none / 0) (#119)
    by Rhouse on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:48:19 PM EST
    if I remember correctly, his being born outside of the US. His father was serving in the Panama canal zone when he was born, I think.

    Parent
    But... (5.00 / 4) (#125)
    by Emma on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:52:23 PM EST
    where was McCain's mother when he was born?

    Parent
    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:00:20 AM EST
    great one :)

    Parent
    Very similar (none / 0) (#146)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:12:26 AM EST
    If McCain was born on the base, that would be considered U.S. soil.

    I almost delivered my son in Australia. He would have had dual citizenship until he turned 21 because both parents are U.S. Citizens.

    I don't know if Obama is a dual citizen to Kenya. His citizenship could probably be challenged for eligibility easier than McCain's could be.

    Parent

    You (none / 0) (#215)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:17:45 AM EST
    have to consider the fact that Obama's exotic background lends credence to rumors about his citizenship. But you also have to realize that McCain was hit with the same thing and released his birth certificate too.

    Parent
    Well it is silly (5.00 / 4) (#86)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:18:38 PM EST
    but I don't understand why he doesn't just release it.  I'm not saying I think he's not a US citizen bc he won't release it.  I think the whole idea is rather silly.  But why not just do it so people will shut up about it?

    It's not as if there's anything particularly shaming in one's birth certificate.

    Parent

    That's just the point. Why not just (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by zfran on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:21:22 PM EST
    release it if there is a question?

    Parent
    My multi-hyphenated family has different paper (5.00 / 0) (#102)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:32:50 PM EST
    ... having been born in different countries, and given the fluid nature of nationality at some borders (eg, visas sometimes required for travel) at any given time one or more of us can easily be classified as "illegal".

    Stoopid policies like slapped-together no-fly lists and whimsical political petulance don't help. (What was that Condi/Rummy idiocy about snubbing France, being rude to Fredonia and giving the ma'baffan'culo to Russia?)

    Parent

    Preemptive (5.00 / 5) (#134)
    by Athena on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:00:45 AM EST
    The site is to function as a garbage can for designating any unpleasantries as "smears" and hence unworthy of discourse.  Agree that there is something desperate and juvenile about the whole thing - it almost sounds like a send-up.

    It's all part of Obama's MO - to designate many concerns as "distractions" from the real issues - which are only those he wants to talk about.  Ultimately, the voters decide what information they need - not the candidate.

    Parent

    Well that's a train-wreck waiting to happen (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Ellie on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:31:22 AM EST
    He doesn't ad lib well and already has an "aloofness" problem. His inner circle of imperious spokespeople are too hungrily enamored of their power. I don't think the move to keep Obama above the fray will work the same way it did for GWB.

    Also, it helps to have real goons and thugs on the perimeter, plus the formidably vicious flying monkey squadrons taking to the air to keep the media scraping and bowing for "access".

    Team Obama has laughable, deletable uncoordinated pests doing that.

    Parent

    This was not well thought out at ALL!!! (5.00 / 1) (#208)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:08:15 AM EST
    First off, the first thing that is proven to be true when the Obama "Fight the Smears" website says it is a Lie is going to cast doubt over EVERY SINGLE THING THAT EVER APPEARED ON THE WEBSITE.  

    Secondly, items they REFUSE to refute on the website are instantly going to be considered TRUE!  Why?  Because Obama won't say it's a smear!

    What a MESS he created for himself!!!  

    This is what happens when you are INEXPERIENCED in whatever it is you are doing.  

    Parent

    Shannon....one would wonder why this (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:06:29 AM EST
    isn't on his smear site...Larry Sinclair's video was the first of the smears I heard about, then Rezko.

    Parent
    I wondered that too (5.00 / 0) (#189)
    by CHDmom on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:02:27 AM EST
    I would have thought that would be one of the first things they posted.

    I think this could cause more problems that do good. IF people hear something and it isn't on the smear page, then they might think it must be true. Also probably alot more people heard about the tape because of this, especially people that don't go online.

    Parent

    oh that (5.00 / 0) (#201)
    by boredmpa on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:44:19 AM EST
    hearing about that produced more laughter than perhaps any other scandal i've ever heard because it's so insanely stupid.  

    if i recall, I posted a comment to that effect on an open thread. deleted right quick.

    ---

    personally i wish we'd have a scandal day after the election to discuss the most ridiculous, most amusing, and most disgust scandals.  a scandal award ceremony so to speak.


    Parent

    It's Off Topic and should not be discussed (none / 0) (#137)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:02:15 AM EST
    the thread is about the web site.

    Parent
    They will never and should never (none / 0) (#157)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:22:03 AM EST
    address this. Larry Sinclair will self-destruct with his absence of credibility and the outrageous level of his claim.


    Parent
    Only time will tell sadly (5.00 / 5) (#26)
    by suisser on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:41:41 PM EST
    I don't really get the birth certificate thing... would be easier if he just released the B.C. and let it go at that.
    On the tape... my only feeling here is that if a tape similar to what has been described, surfaces in Oct. I will be livid. Well, I'm already livid so I will be ... something worse.
    I think the most interesting thing I have heard said on this concerns the attempt by Obama to control his "Google". Being aggressive on this will put HIS spin at the top of the list and that, I believe is the gold nugget in this action. YMHO

    I actually don't think the smears... (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:42:37 PM EST
    ...will be effective.  The efficacy of a website is questionable.  Personally I don't think most voters will be persuaded by this.  

     The efficacy of the noise machine is questionable, these days.  We're oversaturated.  

    I don't believe that VOTERS (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by suisser on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:56:09 PM EST
    are the target audience here, or perhaps they are but they won't be the consumers. Who will go and look? We might, the MSM sure will, PUMA and others looking for any clink in the armour. This could be a very bad move if there are any factual missteps. This could either be a great control mechanism or a site that spins out of control fast.

    Parent
    I'm Thinking (5.00 / 3) (#202)
    by creeper on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:45:59 AM EST
    that the target here may be Obama's own supporters.  Perhaps he's sensing a weakening of their loyalty and this is aimed at shoring up his own base.

    Parent
    Yes I thought so too. (5.00 / 2) (#203)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:49:09 AM EST
    Gives them something to do and keeps the rage up.

    Parent
    Well, there's a point (5.00 / 2) (#206)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:55:59 AM EST
    I was thinking about this smear website offline and suddenly it hit me how hilarious it is that Obama would have a website to help his supporters with smears.

    Parent
    It doesn't hurt (none / 0) (#214)
    by magisterludi on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:14:38 AM EST
    that Suzanne Malveaux on CNN uses the site as the Golden Arbiter of Truth of All Things Obama. The tentacles  the O campaign has worming their way inside the media is evident. That so many "journalists" are willingly  to provide political cover for any candidate is deeply unsettling.

    Parent
    Hillary had a sort of fact check (5.00 / 13) (#47)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:55:24 PM EST
    section on her website. It looked like the rest of the website and didn't use charged words like smear. His website looks kinda cheap and sensational and designed to anger some of his supporters. They do not need any encouragement in that regard. Some are already quite abusive to those who do not agree with them. imo.

    Some supporters do Obama no favors (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:11:30 PM EST
    they are a turnoff.

    Parent
    Sen Clinton was actually under siege though (5.00 / 9) (#69)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:12:46 PM EST
    Really, a historically unprecedented onslaught leveling not only misogynistic bigotry at her, but media demands (for no good reason) that she fold.

    Undemocratic and uncalled-for.

    Parent

    I was saying that hers was more (5.00 / 7) (#104)
    by Joan in VA on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:35:40 PM EST
    restrained and non-inflammatory. Given the siege she was under, it was evidence of what a pro she is. I think he should have incorporated something similar into his website instead of a separate "smear" site.

    Parent
    Yes now the media (5.00 / 3) (#147)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:14:08 AM EST
    can just quote his site as fact. So much easier for them.

    Parent
    lol (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:31:52 AM EST
    Except wouldn't going to a website be more work than they do now?

    Parent
    L'affaire Michelle looks like a reconaissance (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by lorelynn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:57:33 PM EST
    mission to me. We now know that Obama will avoid addressing smears that he feels are beneath him - sorta like John Kerry and the SBVT. If you consider yourself Obama's opponent, it's been a very informative exploration.

    Larry has always been clear that he has never seen the tape and does not know, by name, who has seen it. He's reporting third hand information as third hand information. And Obama let the smear perpeturate for weeks rather than adddress it.

    As Carville taught us in 1992, any political lie not answered within 24 hours becomes a political truth.  If Obama is telling the truth, and Michelle has never used that work, then he has failed the first necessary test for a Democrat. He allowed a highly combustible lie to catch fire and burn untended for too long. what Republicans now know is that they can spread really ugly lies about Obama and he won't say a peep.

    But reporting third hand information (5.00 / 0) (#90)
    by shoephone on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:21:51 PM EST
    as truth is totally unprofessional. Whatever one's personal biases may be for or against a candidate, truth and accuracy in reporting are paramount in my book -- whether the report comes from the MSM, a right-wing radio host or a blog.

    I don't believe the tape exists.

    Parent

    He was always very clear that he had (4.80 / 5) (#110)
    by lorelynn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:40:24 PM EST
    not seen the tape nor spoken with anyone directly who had. He said repeatedly that he was talking to people who knew someone who had seen it. Period. And he said it over and over and over again.

    If you have other impressions, it didn't come from anything Larry wrote.

    Parent

    interesting (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by CHDmom on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:21:42 AM EST
    according to the Time article about the site, Larry started this "smear" in Late May, but the Obama camp asked Michelle about it in April and mid may since they kept hearing about the tape.

    Parent
    I'll drop it because Jeralyn requested us to do so (4.20 / 5) (#117)
    by shoephone on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:47:45 PM EST
    but I know what I've read over at that site.

    There is a reason I am here and not there.

    Thank G*d for civility and accuracy.

    *The end!

    Parent

    What you read is that Larry did not see the (5.00 / 2) (#198)
    by lorelynn on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:33:34 AM EST
    tape, did not have the tape, didn't know who had it and was looking for it. Further, you read that he only spoken with people who knew someone who had seen it.

    Parent
    It's entirely likely she has used that word. (none / 0) (#129)
    by Newt on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:56:03 PM EST
    So have I, and I'm white.  But I haven't used it to put down whites, only in discussions of race relations or in joking with friends who understand what I'm saying.  My black relatives call me whitey to make fun of me occasionally.  

    I would imagine it's like the word n*gger being used in some circles.  It's not necessarily intended to be an insult, and unless you expect to be in the public eye, you say things throughout your life that you probably shouldn't have.  I have friends who use the word f*ck in common everyday speech, like WTF.  But I speak properly around my kids and at the in laws.

    The questions was whether or not someone actually had it on tape.  I'm guessing it took a little time to figure out if the threat of a tape was real.  

    Parent

    Now why is it entirely likely (none / 0) (#144)
    by mbuchel on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:09:18 AM EST
    that she used the word?  This is pure speculation and projection on your part and has no basis in fact.  Your characterization of MO is something I'd expect to read on redstate, not TL.

    Parent
    Yeah, you're right. (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Newt on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:26:08 AM EST
    I'm just coming from the perspective of knowing that oppressed people say things about the oppressor group that don't get expressed in mixed company.  For instance, I've called heterosexuals "breeders" before.  It's silly, and now I have kids of my own so I guess I'm one too, but when I was younger there were plenty of times I spouted off because I was mad at straight people not understanding or deliberately hurting gays.  

    I don't know if Michelle has ever used the term whitey, but if she did, I'd understand where she's coming from.  I hope there's no tape, but it wouldn't be hard to make a fake one and send it around the Internet just before the November election.


    Parent

    From all the denials, (5.00 / 1) (#210)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:26:26 AM EST
    I'm understanding:  

    She didn't say it from the pulpit because she has not spoken from the pulpit of Trinity Church.

    Larry Johnson posted no update so there was no update.

    Roger Stone hasn't met anyone who has seen the tape.  

    Michelle Obama was not on a panel, and the Rainbow Push Conference was at the Sheraton.

    Unfortunately, none of this really answers the basic question:  Does a tape like this exist?  Very good attempt to debunk the smears by parsing.  I give them 3 out of 5 stars.  :)

    Parent

    but Michelle is in pic with Farrakhan's wife (none / 0) (#216)
    by Josey on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:23:41 AM EST
    One pic is not disastrous, but the Obamas love Trinity, Trinity loves the Farrakhans, the Farrakhans love the Nation of Islam...which feeds into the "Obama's father and step-father were Muslims"....
    And all during the primary the media and press identified Hillary with her full name - Hillary Rodham Clinton, but identified Obama as Barack Obama -
    no Hussein. And those including Obama's middle name are identified as
    anti-Obama.
    Will Obama's middle name - Hussein - also be omitted from the history books?


    Parent
    Stephen Frey's The Power Broker (none / 0) (#217)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:27:06 AM EST
    Perhaps the NRO would help here, with the Whitey claim.

    Why Does the Michelle Obama Tape Rumor Match a 2006 Novel?
    Sometimes, this rumor of this alleged tape of Michelle Obama denouncing "whitey" sounds like something out of a clichéd political thriller novel.

    Actually, it sounds exactly like something out of a clichéd political thriller novel. Specifically, Stephen Frey's The Power Broker, published in 2006 by Ballantine Books.

    You can read the rest for yourself.


    Parent

    A military analogy (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:06:45 PM EST
    Does this indicate that Obama is apprehensive about something?  Is this website a nervous flinch or a good precaution?

    The GOP probably have their calendar of attacks worked out to the last detail.  Everyday til the election itself has probably been planned out. All the oppo propped and ready to go.  They appear to have provoked this website into being.

    I think it's a necessary precaution. (4.50 / 2) (#72)
    by lorelynn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:13:02 PM EST
    Once the campaign is definitively on record, rumors tend to die down. The site's efficacy will depend up whether it's used to debunk smears when Obama feels he shouldn't have to respond to them.

    If someone starts reporting that Michelle got a better grade in a class at Harvard because she did X,Y and Z with so and so, will he ignore it or will he respond? If he continues to  ignore the genuinely scurrilous rumors then it won't help him.

    It appears to me that a net is being woven around him that he feels he doesn't need to dignify.

    Parent

    It might be a precaution but it might be more spin (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by Mark Woods on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:02:12 AM EST
    Like instances when the agents of celebrities deliberately release nasty rumors about their clients, just to to keep them in the public eye.

    This news does, admittedly, have everyone here chatting about Obama and NOT thinking about Clinton.

    Isn't that in some way a media coup for the pony?

    Parent

    Well it depends (none / 0) (#193)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:20:17 AM EST
    As soon as I saw that link I went to the site bc I was curious.

    Even though the smears are 'debunked', that doesn't mean the original smears get deleted from your head, even if you don't believe them.  The info's out there.

    I'm now thinking it's more just so he can direct media to his website whenever they ask a hard question.

    Parent

    the site also continues the rage factor (none / 0) (#218)
    by Josey on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:27:12 AM EST
    a very necessary component for Obama's followers, since Hillary left.


    Parent
    I think it's a bad idea.... (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Addison on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:13:38 PM EST
    ...now any time a smear comes up if Obama doesn't respond to it, with facts, on his website instantly that will be talking about endlessly by the defunct media. And the clear loophole there is that if a smear comes up that is completely out of left field and not based on anything, he won't be able to debunk it with facts because disproved a complete negative is impossible.

    We'll see.

    Haha... (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Addison on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:15:46 PM EST
    ...don't try to smear me with my grammatical verb tense errors please, cause from the looks of the above comment I'll have to start 1,000 web sites to try to debunk that, and even then it won't be persuasive.

    Parent
    Maybe those that prepared the (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by zfran on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:14:00 PM EST
    website wanted to make it appear retro or something so that it would appeal to certain demographics. Personally, I don't believe everything I read, this includes debunking websites, candidate websites, and many articles. To me, if something seems questionable, it probably is.

    I would note (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:15:13 PM EST
    I think Obama had pages debunking two of the most common smears - the Muslim thing and, I think, the Pledge of Allegiance one - on his official campaign site, since very early in the campaign.

    I think it's a useful process.  Not everyone who believes this stuff is a hater, some are just regular people who get an email from a friend and think oh, I guess this must be true.  The strategy of ignoring it and hoping it goes away doesn't really apply these days, particularly when the Internet catapults every crazy rumor around the world.

    I confess I had real trouble understanding why Obama didn't release his birth certificate much sooner.  I mean, I guess there's some sort of principle involved, but it's a dumb principle.

    The acid test, howsomeever, is (none / 0) (#111)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:42:36 PM EST
    snopes.com.  What does snopes have to say about these rumors about Obama?

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 4) (#139)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:05:26 AM EST
    Snopes.com generally sticks up for Obama.  Here is one of my favorites: Is Barack Obama the Anti-Christ?  (Hint: No.)

    Parent
    If I had my own website, I could write (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by zfran on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:23:38 PM EST
    whatever I wanted on it to debunk rumors and such. Then, if reporters asked me about things, I could just answer them by saying, see my website, and therefore the answers would always be the same. It's like reading something in a newspaper, it doesn't make it so, it just makes it read, imo.

    How Michelle can hurt Barack (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by daryl herbert on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:01:38 AM EST
    How important is Michelle Obama in the presidential race? Would someone really not vote for Barack because they don't like her?

    She's important, because she can turn white voters off to Barack Obama if they think he buys into her anger and negativity.  She trashed the Clinton years, complained about how hard it is to raise her family on way, way over $100k/year, said things suggesting she has not had much pride in America for a long time, and has said that America has been going downhill for the past 50 years or so.

    It's not that anyone would say "I hate Michelle Obama, so I'm voting for McCain."  It's that she would cause them to have second thoughts about Obama that they might not even realize were triggered by her.  His greatest strength is the perception that he's something new and different.  She can undermine that.

    The woman is a P.R. professional.  But just as doctors shouldn't operate on themselves, and lawyers shouldn't represent themselves, I think she needs other P.R. professionals to keep her in line and on message.

    Wives are important (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:35:07 AM EST
    Look at Laura Bush this past week.  I personally think that Laura is the best thing in the entire Bush administration.  She's out there giving speeches for GWB in Europe and Afghanistan  because he's not very well liked in a lot of places.

    So, wives are important.  

    Parent

    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Steve M on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:20:51 AM EST
    Here is Juan Cole on the silly apostate theory.

    Well then: (none / 0) (#165)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:26:07 AM EST
    Peters and DeVries are Arabists and are among the foremost scholars on Islamic law, unlike Luttwak, who does not have the slightest idea what he is talking about.


    Parent
    Luttwak is military theorist (none / 0) (#177)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:35:36 AM EST
    He was a British intelligence officer in ww2 or something. He was originally from Poland and now he has a farm in Paraguay.  

    shady bio.  

    Parent

    Which part of the above do you (none / 0) (#179)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:38:04 AM EST
    consider "shady"?

    Parent
    It's not his bio. (none / 0) (#182)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:49:48 AM EST
    Google is your Friend.

    It's not his bio but it's plausibly close.

    Parent

    Oh, come on. Spit it out. (none / 0) (#185)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:59:44 AM EST
    and there is disinformation (none / 0) (#181)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:41:46 AM EST
    and there is disinformation.

    lol

    Parent

    try explaining it to the average gun totting Joe (none / 0) (#174)
    by thereyougo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:32:30 AM EST
    six pack.

    They'll just see the the middle name the picture in the white garb, the sound byte and bingo!

    Parent

    Oh, oh.. (none / 0) (#196)
    by Newt on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:27:44 AM EST
    Low information voters smeared again!

    Parent
    Probably off topic (5.00 / 2) (#162)
    by 18anapple2 on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:25:55 AM EST
    Probably off topic as I am directly adressing a"smear" ... Isn't it strange that in a multi racial democracy  that is the US today , a country who accepts as their right the title Leader of the "Free world" ,it is still considered considered a smear that a candidate is called a Muslim. A candidate who is supposed to be "transendental",  "post racial" "unifier" embodiment of our better selves etc cannot still accept that he is also a product of dual religions.  So what even if he choose to be muslim!!! Not a single person either the candidate himself, his surrogates or any one of his legion of fans in the media  or any hgh profile democrat has responded that it ought to be a non issue or acknowledged how insulting and hurtful it is for the Muslim community and how it feeds into the hate and fear mongering.Instead by valiantly jumping to his "defence" they validate the underlying prejudice and discrimination that is omnipresent in the word "smear" .It is the untold story of religous dicrimination in this campaign .

    Stop (5.00 / 1) (#166)
    by anydemwilldo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:26:07 AM EST
    When people started commenting on Hillary's appearance in the context of politics, it was abject sexism.  It certainly isn't any better now.

    www.leavebarackalooone.com (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by english teacher on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:51:11 AM EST


    IMO, this website is just there for (5.00 / 2) (#184)
    by FemB4dem on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:57:29 AM EST
    the media, so they can say -- but Obama flatly denies [fill in the blank].  It certainly won't be of any use on rumors, like the Muslim thing, that have already gone viral well beyond the web.  I know some folks who have no internet access at all, but who are convinced O is a kind of Islamic Manchurian candidate.  They are in that "bitter" demographic that he hasn't had much luck reaching yet. And they vote.  I honestly don't know how he combats this stuff effectively, but this website certainly won't do it.  This is yet another reason I am furious at the DNC for foisting him on us when we had a lot of very electable candidates, and one who, IMO, has always been a real crap shoot, even before he managed to alienate half of his own party.

    I realy dislike that he site encorages (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by feet on earth on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:01:38 AM EST
    and enables group (up to 10) email from the campaign site.

    I would really be upset receiving an unsolicited email addressing smears which someone though, for whatever reason, I should receive.  

    I do not want my email box, particularly at work, clogged with political sh1t.  Very inappropriately. Also very stupid imo to get some people angry at what may be perceived as an invasion of a personal or work space. Feh

    but, but, but (5.00 / 3) (#191)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:10:26 AM EST
    he's the entitled one.

    I agree. In fact, I saw something in comments on one of his post sites that gave a plan for collecting email addresses for their use.

    This campaign group stops at nothing.

    Parent

    according to Huff Post headline, (none / 0) (#192)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:12:43 AM EST
    The World Is Waiting for President Obama

    Parent
    Block that e-mail address (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 02:16:21 AM EST
    I don't like spam (or unrequested e-mail) in my regular e-mail address either so I rarely give it out.  I have Yahoo addresses I use for a lot of things.  

    Parent
    I would (none / 0) (#219)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:31:05 AM EST
    be ticked off to receive an email from the Obama campaign because I did a forwarded email.

    Parent
    I skipped to the end (5.00 / 3) (#199)
    by Grace on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:38:03 AM EST
    because this board is approaching the Fatal 200 mark...

    I don't know if anyone brought this up...

    But it's not like an "Independent Third Party" is verifying that the "smears" are not true.  It's the person the "smears" are supposed to be about that is saying they aren't true.  

    But what if they are true?  

    What if the first smear had been about Reverend Wright being the preacher in Obama's church for 20 years?  And Obama denied it.  And later on, you found out it was true.  What would that make you think of the website and the candidate?

    Frankly, I'm thinking this through as I type, but this seems like a juvenile way to stop rumors.  And it's also a way to potentially suppress the truth (and I don't like that at all).    

    I think he's playing with fire. (4.83 / 6) (#14)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:34:49 PM EST
    Such a site may end up encouraging people to dig harder and deeper to prove the truth of the allegations, especially given that, at least from my cursory look, the debunking appears pretty thin - not a whole lot more than a lot of "are not!" to the smears' "are too!"

    Larry Johnson already has an answer up at his site; say what you will about Larry, he isn't going to drop any of the bones he's been chewing on just because a lame Obama "Fight the Smears" web page says so.

    And he won't be the only one who won't let go just because Obama has decreed something to be false.

    As a tool to keep his supporters fired up, it probably works just fine, but I think it may be more of a Pandora's Box than anything else.

    Anne....you have to wonder why he didn't (5.00 / 10) (#19)
    by PssttCmere08 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:39:00 PM EST
    put anything about Rezko up there since there are many stories going around about his relationship with obama.

    Parent
    Well, I'm outta here. (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by sociallybanned on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:50:24 PM EST
    I don't belong anymore like I didn't belong to Huffpo.

    See you all on the flip side; Hillaryclintonforum.net

    with love from KY

    Parent

    previously answered incorrectly?!? (5.00 / 0) (#222)
    by Josey on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:48:32 AM EST
    Obama LIED about his relationship with Rezko! Throughout 2007, Obama claimed he "barely knew the man" while he refused to meet with Chicago reporters.
    In March, as the Wright tapes were reaching epic soundbites, Obama finally slithered into a interview with the reporters - and we learned Rezko was on Obama's 2004 Senate campaign Finance committee, among other things.


    Parent
    I think it is a tool for (5.00 / 6) (#22)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:40:33 PM EST
    his supporters.  No one is going to his site to see how something is debunked.  His supporters can get the official response and e-mail it and post it around the net.  He can use it as a deflection for reporters....

    Here's a bad thought.... I expect another round of 'go to his website'     sigh.

    Parent

    Larry is not claiming the tape smear is true (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:40:59 PM EST
    He's saying Obama misstated what he said about it.

    Which means there is zero evidence of a tape and thus Obama's debunking of it is unchallenged.

    The origin of it is the completely incredible (in my view) right wing smear artist and Republican operative Roger Stone, who played a huge role in the Eliot Spitzer fiasco and is credited with shutting down the Florida recount effort.

    So Larry is not vouching for the existence of a tape.

    Parent

    Larry did claim that there (none / 0) (#33)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:46:54 PM EST
    was a tape. He may no longer be saying so.

    Parent
    this post is not about Larry (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:49:27 PM EST
    Larry said he heard there was a tape. I don't think he should have run with the story. But he never said he had the tape or had heard it. He said people he believed were credible told him about it.

    Let's not get sidetracked into a discussion of Larry.

    Parent

    Well... (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:14:13 PM EST
    I could care less whether LJ has personal credibility or not, but he is linked forever to this "smear", and so any discussion of it has to involve him, necessarily.  In one of his latest posts, he claims that Karen Tumulty said that Michelle Obama was asked about and denied the existence of this tape in April, and that he (LJ) hadn't heard of it until late May.  If Tumulty is right (and being in the M$M that is an important qualifier to say the least) then LJ did not start a rumor, he only amplified it.  Plus, we have the "Why did he" defense that has been spread far and wide across the blogosphere, so I have a feeling that something exists somewhere.

    That said, the Regressives have a horrible track record on things like this.  I remember when they hyped Pres. Clinton's taped deposition that was supposedly going to destroy him because he "ranted and raved" and "made a fool of himself" and all of their other sundry typical garbage.  Well, the tape was released and they were exposed as the fools (and liars) that they were.  I hope that Larry is being played, because if this is somehow true (which I do doubt) and this comes out in October we are deader than Dillinger, and not for just this election either.  To be honest, it doesn't matter to me at this point, as his Pyhrric victory has left me at best subdued in my support of him.

    Jackson

    Parent

    Sorry Jeralyn... (none / 0) (#88)
    by Jackson Hunter on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:20:28 PM EST
    Did not see your last warning post, I'm not trying to be an irritant.  I think my post has more to do with the smear than him, so I hope that you let it stand, but will completely understand if you do not.  I'm not trying to stir the pot.  Sorry again.

    Regards,

    Jackson

    Parent

    Apologies, Jeralyn (none / 0) (#100)
    by shoephone on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:31:53 PM EST
    I posted my comments before seeing yours. I will refrain from that discussion.

    Parent
    Is Larry for McCain now? (none / 0) (#41)
    by bjorn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:50:24 PM EST
    I don't understand what he is trying to do now other than get McCain elected.

    Parent
    No he does not like McCain. (none / 0) (#46)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:55:09 PM EST
    He said he's going to vote Bob Barr. He knows it is still a longshot, but he's hoping somehow Hillary will be the nominee.

    He said with McCain we'll still be stuck with the "lunacy of the neocons."

    Parent

    last warning (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:08:40 PM EST
    to not make this thread about Larry.

    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#107)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:38:25 PM EST
    Realized that after I hit "Post".

    Parent
    With respect (none / 0) (#121)
    by gyrfalcon on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:49:33 PM EST
    Roger Stone is an even bigger self-promoter than he is dirty tricks artist.  As far as I know, no one, including Stone, has ever claimed he has anything to do with any tape, never mind being the "origin" of the story.

    Parent
    Pandora's box (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Valhalla on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:05:41 PM EST
    I was thinking along these lines too.  

    The evil thing about all the smears (well about any smears I guess) is that it totally does not matter that they are not true.  It does not even matter if proof exists conclusively that they are not true.  The words themselves get out in the atmosphere and they become true to some people.  I guarantee there are some people out there who think they've actually seen that Michelle video tape that has not been shown to exist and is very unlikely to exist.  Or are right now telling a friend that their other friend, or cousin or friend of friend saw the video themselves.

    Even if only in response, I have to wonder if bringing the smears up doesn't make it worse.  After all, you'd expect Obama (or anyone) to deny those particular smears even if they were true.

    Maybe in the end it's a draw.

    Parent

    Larry Johnson has 0 credibility now (3.66 / 3) (#21)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:40:09 PM EST
    Or are you going to join him in questioning whether the birth certificate is real?

    Parent
    Was that Larry or one of the (5.00 / 0) (#36)
    by waldenpond on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:49:08 PM EST
    let me put this politely... one of the 'more colorful' posters at that site?  I don't have an issue with Larry.  He has been very clear about what he has heard and read.  No tape.  Just opinions that it exists.

    The birth cert?  They will get (let me put this politely)... 'overexcited' over there, but once the cert is blown up so it can be read, they will drop it.

    Parent

    Jeralyn has requested (none / 0) (#45)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:53:07 PM EST
    that we stop talking about him. Let me respond by pointing you to the most recent posting at noquarter. And now, I drop the issue.

    Parent
    Larry is messing with his own credibility, but (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:50:36 PM EST
    he posted this morning to prove that Obama's claims against him were actually false. Although, technically, he's right, Larry did lead people to believe he was going to post that video. His Monday morning pre-9:00 am post didn't even SAY anything substantial, let alone show anything.

    But, that doesn't negate the site using that as an example of smear is just to make the list longer.

    I'm surprised by how short the list is. Nothing that makes me unsure of him even appeared. He must be concerned his young voters are easily led.


    Parent

    No, Larry made very clear that he hadn't (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by lorelynn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:17:01 PM EST
    seen the tape, didn't have the tape and that he hadn't spoken with anyone who had seen the tape. Go back and read his posts - there was never any ambiguity about that.

    Parent
    I never said he (none / 0) (#115)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:45:17 PM EST
    claimed to have seen it.

    Parent
    He never lead anyone to believe (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by lorelynn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:49:49 PM EST
    he was going to post it. He repeatedly stated that he didn't have the tape, hadn't seen it and hadn't spoken to anyone who had seen it. If he's never seen the tape, doesn't have the tape and doesn't know who does have the tpae, then he cannot post it.

    Parent
    You know, andgarden, you might want (5.00 / 7) (#44)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:51:55 PM EST
    to read my comment again, because my point was that such a site was likely to encourage someone like Larry Johnson to just keep digging; nowhere in my comment did I even suggest that I believed Larry's allegations or felt him to be at all credible.

    I'm beginning to tire of your penchant for declaring others to be flat-out wrong when nothing but opinion is being expressed, and for leaping to conclusions and making accusations that could be easily avoided by a more careful reading of comments.

    Parent

    I think your comment (2.00 / 2) (#50)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:57:31 PM EST
    is leaden with innuendo about there being some truth to the rumors. So I did read your comment carefully. Perhaps my reading did not comport with what you intended, but I very much suspect that it did.

    In the event, people might "keep digging," but unless there's something to the rumors, there's nothing to dig for.

    Parent

    My comment was "leaden" with no such (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:13:04 PM EST
    thing (I think you meant "laden"); I was responding to Jeralyn's asking what we thought about the effect that the site might have.  Following the link to Fight the Smears, I saw a link to No Quarter - a site I stopped reading a long time ago because it was just too "out there" for me, and I thought it more harmful than helpful to Clinton.

    Following the link to No Quarter, I saw that Larry has his teeth firmly into the issue in question - hence my point that no web site that Obama could create would deter someone who is determined to keep digging into.

    Is this clear enough for you?  Do you understand yet that I was addressing the potential pitfalls of such a web page and not using the subject to accuse anyone of anything?  For crying out loud, I hadn't even heard about the birth certificate thing until I read the "smear" on Obama's page.  Do you draw any nefarious conclusions from that?

    As for your declaration that people can dig, but if there's nothing to it, there's nothing to dig for, you might want to revisit the whole Kerry/Swiftboat Vets for Truth debacle.  Maybe I missed something, but Kerry declaring that the swiftboaters were digging for nothing didn't do much to stop the smears.

    And, further to my point, Obama's new web page/tool isn't going to be much use in that regard, either.

    Parent

    Fair enough (none / 0) (#82)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:16:45 PM EST
    Jeralyn has asked that we stop talking about LJ, so I won' reply further.

    Parent
    It's a ceritifcation of birth, (none / 0) (#28)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:43:14 PM EST
    not the birth certificate.  It's the document you get when you request for a proof of birth later in life....it is NOT his birth certificate.

    Parent
    And he's not an American (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:44:29 PM EST
    he's actually a citizen of the U.S.A.!!!!!

    Parent
    Hahaha... (none / 0) (#35)
    by Alec82 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:47:12 PM EST
    Too good.

    Parent
    he is USA people (none / 0) (#38)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:49:42 PM EST
    heh (none / 0) (#204)
    by boredmpa on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:50:33 AM EST
    cue the crazy folks talking about what it means to be a "natural born citizen."

    If there was surgery or a doctor/midwife assistance on any kind....then clearly the constitution doesn't allow you to become president!


    Parent

    please don't repost (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:46:59 PM EST
    right wing talking points. That argument is all over them. And don't perpetuate the smears.

    Parent
    Are you referring to my comment? (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:12:15 PM EST
    I have no knowledge of Republican talking points.  I am a retired immigration attorney and this document is what you see when you ask for a proof of birth when the original BC is not available.

    Therefore, my comment is correct.  And not a talking point.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#84)
    by Steve M on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:17:08 PM EST
    They won't create one of these for you, other than from the official records, right?

    Parent
    Yes - but it doesn't contain (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:29:30 PM EST
    all/the same information that might have been actually taken at birth.  It's a "recap" not a replica of the real thing.

    Parent
    so what could be on (none / 0) (#131)
    by tben on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:57:27 PM EST
    the certificate that isnt on this?

    Parent
    So what? (none / 0) (#197)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 01:33:32 AM EST
    Probably depends on the county (none / 0) (#103)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:35:38 PM EST
    I had to order some of mine from my county of birth in northern Minnesota a couple of years ago. When I received them, they had the name of one of my parents wrong. I called to get them to send me correct ones, and was met with a very defensive person who wanted to challenge me.

    I used to have a real birth certificate, and wish we could still get those.

    Obama's has more information on it than mine does.


    Parent

    Um, kid, we don't know how to break this to you .. (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by Ellie on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:47:47 PM EST
    When I received [... my papers ...] they had the name of one of my parents wrong

    Mom or dad?

    :: awkward cough ::

    Parent

    Heh, heh, heh (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:25:45 AM EST
    Mom.

    I should just have a standing order for these things for how often I lose them. First time there was a mistake and it was just the spelling.

    You're on quite the roll tonight, Ellie :)

    Parent

    Now We See (none / 0) (#23)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:40:39 PM EST
    That it is dangerous to play with ex CIA. He used to be a great source of info, but since he went ballistic against Obama he is using all his black ops training against us.

    Not good, imo.

    Parent

    Another smart use (2.00 / 0) (#39)
    by roadburdened on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:49:44 PM EST
    of the internet by Obama. Nothing can stop the smears from going viral, but this is a handy way to combat them.

    The 5-4 decision, Stephanie winning Top Chef,  Celtics beating the Lakers--there might be something to this hope thing.

    I was disappointed that (1.00 / 1) (#154)
    by LoisInCo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:19:11 AM EST
    the web site did not debunk the statement  that Obama made saying he would not run for President because he was inexperienced. It would be interesting to watch them debunking Obama with Obama.

    I have always tended to think (none / 0) (#171)
    by Salo on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:31:18 AM EST
    that Experience is about the voter experiencing the candidate over an extended perid of time.  

    The GOP can say what ever they like about Obama, even if it is contradictory, and someone will believe it. Cause he's not been on the national scene for long enough.

    Parent

    mixed feelings on this (none / 0) (#1)
    by dws3665 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:22:27 PM EST
    Not sure it will help, and does it make him look tough/ready to respond, or histrionic?

    After the swiftboat nonresponse of 2004, however, I guess I'd have to say on balance at least some action is better than none.

    He looked exasperated on CNN (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by catfish on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:27:59 PM EST
    when talking about the smears and the need for the website. Suzanne Malveaux ran a clip of him on his plane saying rumors get started then reporters ask him if they're true.

    Parent
    The swift boat stuff was horrible (5.00 / 6) (#7)
    by djork on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:30:06 PM EST
    but I believe Kerry lost the election when he said "I voted for the $87B before I voted against it." He spent the remainder of the campaign trying in vain to clean that up. I'm afraid that Obama has enough on-the-record baggage that fighting the rumors will have marginal significance.

    Parent
    Kerry, what a waste! (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by cpa1 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:36:38 PM EST
    All he had to say was, I voted for the version of the bill that gave medical insurance to the families of National Guardsman who we plucked out of their jobs and their insurance.  Bush didn't care about the Guard or the reserves so his version screwed them royally and that was the disgusting version I could not vote for.  It's easy not to develop compassion when Bush's daddy got him whatever he needed.  These poor families don't have old money behind them, so they suffer under the feet of chickenhawks like Bush and Cheney.

    Parent
    Swiftboating? What do you think (5.00 / 12) (#31)
    by Shainzona on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:44:32 PM EST
    Obama and fans did to HRC these past 8 months?

    HRC was swiftboated by her own party.

    Shame!  Just, shame!

    Parent

    His last website like that was (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by cpa1 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:30:15 PM EST
    hillaryattacksobama.com.  That's where he charged everyone associated with the Clinton campaign of racism, from Charlie Rangel to Andrew Young, Bob Johnson, Andrew Cuomo and Hillary.  

    Parent
    I think that people who believe (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by samanthasmom on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:31:20 PM EST
    the smears are not going to be assuaged unless the smears are debunked by someone who is assumed to be credible. Think Walter Cronkite. The danger here for the Obamas is that if the website "debunks" something that later turns out to be true (even a little bit true), people are going to assume that everything else is probably true, too.  There had better not be any "it depends on what is is" answers. I wouldn't go there with this unless I was willing to be excruciatingly honest.  

    Parent
    The credibility comes from the people that will (none / 0) (#151)
    by Newt on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:17:06 AM EST
    use the site to debunk smear emails from their friends, relatives & religious mailing lists.

    Remember, the big difference in this campaign is that it's a grassroots effort.

    The more people debunking smears by using the Obama site, the more effective the undermining will be.  The talking points are more professional than just someone replying to a group email, the communication is more consistent, and the work is done by Obama supporters, so the efforts are magnified.


    Parent

    Let's be (none / 0) (#221)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 06:46:23 AM EST
    honest here. If you got a response to an email from the McCain campaign how effective do you think that would be? Not at all in my book. Frankly, I don't think this website will be very helpful on that account.

    Parent
    I think it's absolutely right (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:25:07 PM EST
    that he have a site like this. I'm sorry that he didn't do it sooner.

    Look a couple of comments up the thread (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:12:57 PM EST
    this is not the first one he put up.

    Parent
    Sunlight Is The Best Disinfectant (none / 0) (#3)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:25:11 PM EST
    Instead of hoping that they go away, or that sensible people realize that they are GOP BS smears, this sounds like it could be a good thing.

    I guess we will see.

    Well, (none / 0) (#4)
    by andgarden on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:27:17 PM EST
    "A lie travels round the world while truth is putting her boots on."

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 10:31:27 PM EST
    That is why I qualified with we'll see. It is a risk especially with the way we have seen the GOP steamroller in acton.

    Parent
    Thanks for unbanning (none / 0) (#62)
    by dianem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:07:55 PM EST
    I wanted to talk about the "whitey" story, not because I thought it had merit, but because I was pretty sure it was just a standard fake smear. This is what we're going to see a lot of - "whisper" smears. Things that seem impossible, and are, but they gradually get big enough that the media pick up on them and give them credibility. It is very smart of Axelrod to create a one stop shop for the media to get facts. Of course, I have to throw this in, Axelrod is a pro at whisper campaigns, so it doesn't surprise me that he has a system in place to stop them in their tracks. This will make it much harder to spread lies. Now they just have to defend against less egregious distortions.

    I feel the need to point out (4.50 / 8) (#94)
    by suisser on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:23:54 PM EST
    that the entire HCDS was based on "whisper" and innuendo.  And in that case is appears to have cost a truly qualified and able candidate her place in history.
    If a "whisper" can do that to her, then imagine what it might do to the empty suit...

    Parent
    What he is posting on this site (none / 0) (#95)
    by JavaCityPal on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:24:25 PM EST
    is, at least, showing just smear. Many things are circulating about him that have not been posted. So, does that make them true?

    I get chain emails teaching me all kinds of crazy things. I've learned to check SNOPES before I forward them on. It might take awhile before media gets used to checking this site.

    The "whitey" story had two releases. First mention of it was just a tape of Michelle that was vile. Second release was the use of the word "whitey" along with a description of a 30 minute tirade at that meeting where she went off on Bill Clinton (he had been a speaker at the gathering) during the women's meeting. That something horrible with Michelle existed and was being released (supposedly the Monday before the SD and MT final primaries) to TV media was announced by a regular guest on FOX, as well. And, of course, nothing showed up. If it exists, many people have it. Supposedly, it is a DVD that was sold on the TUCC web site until this last March, and the meeting was in 2004. If it does exist, it will have no impact at all ... it's "chicken little" effect will keep people from reacting.


    Parent

    I don't think it exists (none / 0) (#101)
    by dianem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:32:04 PM EST
    How on earth could something like this exist and be leaked and not be on Youtube by now? This is just a smear. There is probably some tape of her talking passionately, but it isn't what some say it is. Besides, if they actually dismissed something on the web site and then it turned out to be true, they would be destroyed.

    Rumors are powerful. Remember all of the crap surrounding Bill Clinton when he was in office? The media fell all over themselves trying to out-scoop each other and facts be damned. The internet is even less reliable. I'm not going to believe anything until I see it, and even then I'll express doubt until I've had a chance to think about it.

    Parent

    Absolutely (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by JavaCityPal on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:19:04 AM EST
    I'll bet Obama has a copy of the DVD this is supposed to be on, or at least Rev Wright does.

    They put on their smear web site because they know there's nothing to it.

    It got mileage, and there will be a segment of the population that will always believes it exists. You know, the ones who believe Elvis is still alive.


    Parent

    It's an attempt to provoke (none / 0) (#113)
    by Salo on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:43:19 PM EST
    It's like having an argument with the wife and she calls you a murderer or something you are not.  In front of the kids.  

    Well, you are going to yell back something equally stupid.  Right?  Or you put up a cool website.

    Parent

    I wonder if this would work for 5th (none / 0) (#176)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:33:21 AM EST
    grade?

    Parent
    Failure To Catapult (none / 0) (#66)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 11:11:06 PM EST
    Since I haven't heard any rumors at all, it must be safe to say the propaganda artists are failing in their ability to catapult it my direction. To keep up with the juvenile GOP tactics, perhaps I need to start surfing some prepubescent blogs.

    I Don't See This Working (none / 0) (#158)
    by creeper on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:23:40 AM EST
    Why would he give even this kind of exposure to these stories?

    And what happens to rumors that are true?  If a rumor isn't debunked/denied on that website may we assume it is accurate?

    This is the worst kind of trash (none / 0) (#159)
    by andgarden on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 12:24:01 AM EST
    How would you like it if some religion insisted that you were one of them, no matter what you said?

    I do not accept your reasoning.

    Why even address the alleged Michelle video? (none / 0) (#212)
    by cygnus on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 05:36:23 AM EST
    It either exists or it doesn't.  No video, no problem. The other stuff is more smear-friendly, because people can concoct wild theories involving fake birth cerificates, etc.  That's what happened with Hillary and Vince Foster.

    It looks like they're just mad at Larry Johnson.

    Cover of Today's Chicago Sun-Times (none / 0) (#223)
    by bmc on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 08:28:10 AM EST
    http://time-blog.com/real_clear_politics/2008/06/the_whitey_lie.html

    As a follow up to my post yesterday about Obama's new internet offensive against rumors, you can't get much more definitive than the cover of today's Chicago Sun-Times.

    Lynn Sweet's lede demonstrates what a sea change this represents for the Obama campaign, going from standard, play it safe tactics to a high risk strategy:

    [Sweet writes--link at URL above]

    "When I phoned the Obama press shop a few times in recent weeks to check out rumors about whether there was a videotape with Michelle Obama using the word "whitey," the campaign declined to issue a denial or to pass along the question to Michelle's staff to find out what might be fueling the rumors.

    From "declining to issue a denial" to a headline on the front page of the Sun-Times screaming "SMEAR!, SHE NEVER SAID 'WHITEY.' That's a long way to travel in just a couple of weeks.

    Again, while risky, I think this represents a smart strategy on Obama's part, so long as they have all the facts on their side. But if they don't, and if there is anything that comes out that is even somewhat contradictory, the Obama campaign will be barraged with questions and forced into a defensive posture that will involve some serious parsing of language and could damage the candidate's credibility quite severely. It is a high risk, high reward gambit.



    Michelle (none / 0) (#224)
    by wasabi on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 08:38:37 AM EST
    "Third: How important is Michelle Obama in the presidential race? Would someone really not vote for Barack because they don't like her?"

    Rush will have a field day with smearing Michelle over her already documented comments.  "Whitey" just adds more flavor to the pot.  It doesn't need to be true for it to have an effect.

    I recall talking with my uncle, a Reagan Dem after the 2004 election and he said he couldn't vote for Kerry because Theresa Heinz Kerry was a crazy woman and she shouldn't be allowed to represent American by being First Lady.  What did Theresa say to garner that kind of criticism?  Newsweek ran a cover on her called "Crazy Like A Fox".  Political insiders labeled her too exotic, too uncontrollable and too talkative.  Oh my!  She didn't fit the bill for the candidate's spouse.  She didn't limit herself to casting admiring glances at her husband when he was on the stump.  That's all it took.