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Obama To Sort Of Declare Victory Tonight?

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:11:01 PM EST
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I am really interested in how Obama deals with this expectation that he will sort of declare victory but not declare it. ESPECIALLY if he will mention Florida and Michigan.

I also love watching the Obama News Network (NBC) acting as if this is the biggest bestest night ever for the Obama campaign. They are so funny because now they are being so defensive that everyone knows they are the Obama News Network.

Talk about what you like. I am not live blogging any speeches. Never have and never will.

Ok, one thought, it is just weird that he is in Iowa, not Oregon. I do not get it. He could have done the speech right at 11 pm EST and been on all the local news shows. It is sort of a dis of Oregon isn't it?

By Big Tent Democrat

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< Obama, CNN, NBC Do Not Count Florida and Michigan | Oregon Results Thread: Obama Wins >

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    Obama To Sort Of Declare Victory Tonight? | 262 comments (262 topical)
    But it's now 1627 (5.00 / 6) (#1)
    by Coldblue on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:13:01 PM EST
    haven't you heard? That is the new metric.

    I think this campaign started in 1627 (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:16:29 PM EST
    Whenever I hear that number it sounds like a date from my 8th grade history class.  Did the pilgrims land that year or something?

    Parent
    Very good! Plimoth Rock, 1620 (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:37 PM EST
    and the recreation of the village there is dated to 1627.  Had to put in the farm fields first, maybe?

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 0) (#206)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:57:46 PM EST
    Sister Loretta Ann would be proud of me!

    Parent
    Boycott NBC/MSNBC tonight! (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:18:37 PM EST
    A number of pro-Hillary blogs are calling for a boycott of NBC/MSNBC and their affiliates tonight - to protest their heinous coverage of Clinton.

    It's still not too late to change channels if you want - BO is talking NOW.

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#15)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:19:38 PM EST
    NBC has the Stanley Cup Finals.  Unthinkable!

    Parent
    Right now? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:20:42 PM EST


    Parent
    I mean (none / 0) (#79)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:36 PM EST
    that I couldn't possibly consider boycotting NBC.

    MSNBC, on the other hand, never graces our household.

    Parent

    So awkward. Watching it on Fox. (5.00 / 4) (#2)
    by catfish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:15:05 PM EST
    He gets spanked, then declares victory.

    I am frankly not interested (5.00 / 9) (#3)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:15:08 PM EST
    The next interesting moment of this campaign is almost certain to be on May 31st in the rules committee. If it seems worthwhile, I might go liveblog the event myself, seeing as I'll be here in DC.

    I might be interested when obama kinda sorta (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:26 PM EST
    tells us he is leaving the race.

    Parent
    PROTEST ON MAY 31ST (5.00 / 1) (#209)
    by nell on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:58:05 PM EST
    Since it has come up, in case any of you are in DC or able to come up to DC, there is a "Count our Votes" protest being organized for May 31st at the Rules committee meeting. It is an open meeting, so the DNC is required to release the location of the event, though they have not yet done so, despite great pressure.

    From an email I got:
    "...Count Every Vote rally at the DNC's Rules & Bylaws Committee meeting in Washington, D.C. on May 31st at 7:00 a.m, at which we will call for the DNC to seat all Florida and Michigan delegates at the Democratic National Convention."

    The website for the group is here:
    http://www.floridademandsrepresentation.org/

    Parent

    Please do live blog it (none / 0) (#176)
    by bjorn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:50:22 PM EST


    Parent
    That would be wonderful! (none / 0) (#181)
    by eleanora on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:52:27 PM EST
    I hope you'll post it here so we can follow along. I'm praying hard every day that the committee members do the right thing and remember that we Democrats have always stood for counting. every. vote.

    Parent
    Sez he has nice-looking wife. OK gross! (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by catfish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:16:20 PM EST
    Yes his wife is lovely-looking. But not appropriate given he's trying to win over women. Ugh. He needs a clue.

    No way he said that (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:17:56 PM EST
    I can't make myself watch, but I am enjoying the commentary.

    dDd he call her sweetie?

    Parent

    Well all admire her courage, he says. (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by catfish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:24:02 PM EST
    Immediately after she spanked him in KY. "We all admire her courage"

    There's something so wrong about what he's saying. I know he should say this but it's very condescending. He needs me on his staff.

    Parent

    You know his preacher voice? Too loud. (none / 0) (#20)
    by catfish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:21:31 PM EST
    He he's dropping the 'g's and deliverin a sermon. Gag!

    Parent
    Really??? (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:22:51 PM EST
    LOL.  Sorry.

    What a moron.

    Sure.  This'll be deleted.  It's what I think.  I hate that preacher voice.  Less religion in Politics, please.

    Parent

    It's definitely a grand speech. (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by catfish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:48 PM EST
    About what I am not sure. Lots of amens from the audience.

    Parent
    Obama supporters (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:23:10 PM EST
    do not applaud for Hillary, ef them all.  

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#93)
    by CCinNC on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:34:19 PM EST
    they did.

    Parent
    After supporting Dems all these years (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:19 PM EST
    partly because we keep religion out of politics, you can imagine how much I would like having a nominee that sounds like a preacher.


    Parent
    I lasted 2 seconds. I can't stand that (5.00 / 5) (#119)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:39:18 PM EST
    come to Jesus style. Like nails on the chalkboard.

    Parent
    Wow, That Mattered (5.00 / 1) (#213)
    by Athena on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:58:50 PM EST
    Did I miss the part where he thanked John Edwards for the help in Kentucky?

    Parent
    Elmer Gantry (5.00 / 1) (#254)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:14:32 PM EST
    John Judis spoke about the g's here:

    Sometimes, voters will think a candidate cares about them because they think he is "one of them." Bill Clinton, of course, was a genius at this. He could be the candidate of Hope, Ark., and Yale Law School. Other Democrats have succeeded because they have come off as a father (or mother) figure, who, although from the upper class, still cares about the average American. Obama's manner, tenor and diction are Harvard Law, and when he starts dropping his 'g's,' he sounds strained. And Obama is too young, and lacks the stature, to appear as a Franklin Roosevelt-style father figure.

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/359670_obama20.html

    Parent

    Just demanded unity. (none / 0) (#39)
    by catfish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:24:54 PM EST
    We need it. Didn't ask for unity, demanded it.

    Parent
    Not a gracious, grateful, or (5.00 / 5) (#126)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:39 PM EST
    compassionate bone in his body.

    Not asking for unity, claiming it will just happen.

    He doesn't have a clue how offensive his behavior has been. He can't be sitting at the negotiating table for anything on behalf of this country.


    Parent

    Exactly---Bush Jr. (5.00 / 5) (#162)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:47:30 PM EST


    Parent
    No, she isn't lovely looking. (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Angel on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:55 PM EST


    Parent
    you ain't lying ethel....I think it is because she (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by PssttCmere08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:34:31 PM EST
    isn't very pretty inside and it shows.

    Parent
    Both of your comments (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:36:30 PM EST
    are pretty ugly.

    Parent
    Yepper. (none / 0) (#105)
    by Angel on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:36:08 PM EST


    Parent
    Cmon (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:43:00 PM EST
    I'm no Michelle Obama fan, but attacking the appearance of a candidate's wife isn't appropriate.

    Parent
    we sweeties love it when you say (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:55:11 PM EST
    we are decorative

    Parent
    He said that? (5.00 / 1) (#251)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:12:13 PM EST
    Really?

    Parent
    He was commenting (1.00 / 0) (#81)
    by CCinNC on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:51 PM EST
    on his family, not just his wife.

    Parent
    Don't care. Nothing is attractive about Obama (1.00 / 0) (#97)
    by Angel on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:22 PM EST
    or his family.

    Parent
    Aww, the kids are cute (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:45:19 PM EST
    but Michelle does have an unfortunate under-bite.

    Parent
    Major TMJ jaw. Ouch! (none / 0) (#252)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:13:08 PM EST
    She's not a happy lady!

    Parent
    wow (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by asadotzler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:47:36 PM EST
    I commented below on how sad it is that this once so positive and valuable site with great blog posts and great comments has changed.

    Your comment is a perfect example.

    I'd encourage you to go back a year or three or five and read a few days worth of posts here and then come back and re-evaluate your comments to see if you think they fit in with maintaining this site as a valuable resource for honest and forthright discussion of crime and justice in the U.S.

    Parent

    Agreed (1.00 / 0) (#231)
    by CCinNC on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:05:14 PM EST
    I've also been a reader (and mostly lurker) for years.  I don't know this place anymore.  I just went to Daily Kos and read the top 2 posts including all of the comments from #1 and the first several dozen from #2.  Using the words of a commenter here, many of these comments ARE "over the top."

    Parent
    It is a crime that Obama and the media have (1.00 / 1) (#242)
    by Angel on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:09:39 PM EST
    hijacked the Democratic Nomination for President in 2008.  So suck on it.

    Parent
    I will say this: (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:16:37 PM EST
    Obama is still smart to try and lock up Iowa now.

    he won't win there... (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Salo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:24:04 PM EST
    ...I suspect.

    The last polling I saw there indicates his lead is down to 2%.

    I think it'll switch red just like Missouri does every year.

    I am most interested in the polling in New England and Colorado at this point.

    Parent

    Agreed. (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:50:03 PM EST
    And he looks like a baffoon giving this speech.  He's lost what...400k votes to Hill in the last 8 days from two small states?  Bizarre.

    Parent
    Give Missouri a little more credit (5.00 / 1) (#214)
    by standingup on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:59:19 PM EST
    We did go for Bill in '92 and '96.  It is not the voters but the candidates the Democrats nominate that are the problem.  Of course, I expect MO will go for McCain this year.

    Parent
    I Swear (none / 0) (#257)
    by creeper on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:16:48 PM EST
    if we'd known about Rev. Wright at the time of our caucuses there is no way in hell Iowa would have gone for Barack Obama.  

    Parent
    Oh please. That is getting so old. Backfiring. (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by catfish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:17:08 PM EST
    His negatives are hardening because of this. I voted for Clinton. Am I a racist?

    I am not sure when (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:38:35 PM EST
    Being pro-Hillary turned into being anti-Obama.

    I'll just let you know that neither of them was my first choice to be the nominee, but regardless of who comes out on top in the end, I am without a doubt voting for them in November.

    Parent

    Simple answers to simple questions (3.00 / 6) (#120)
    by lambertstrether on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:39:38 PM EST
    I voted for Clinton. Am I a racist?

    Yes.

    Parent

    Admin - troll comment above. (none / 0) (#130)
    by catfish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:18 PM EST
    I started out thinking we really needed to elect a black man. I decided Hillary was by far the better candidate.

    You call people racist, you turn them off. You lose in November.

    Parent

    That's Lambert and it's snark. (5.00 / 2) (#210)
    by Teresa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:58:07 PM EST


    Parent
    Sorry Lambert didn't know it was you. (none / 0) (#243)
    by catfish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:09:51 PM EST
    Too funny.

    Parent
    No, one with a proven track record of (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Teresa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:17:19 PM EST
    caring about their needs. Why can't you get that?

    Pompous!! (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:17:20 PM EST


    What's that Orwell quote about reality (5.00 / 7) (#11)
    by lorelynn on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:17:50 PM EST
    and fantasy eventually meeting up on a battlefield somewhere? I'm just flummoxed by how half the Democratic party is acting - like it's outrageous that we count all the states. It's not like Obama will be able to unite the party behind him if everyone knows that Clinton would have gotten the nomination if Florida and Michigan were included. And I'm not saying that resolution is a foregone conclusion. But if Michigan and Florida are definitive, then they must be counted.

    All this magical thinking that we can just pretend that there votes don't matter to the conclusion and that it won't matter to them if we count them.

    Obama should never have taken himself off that ballot. So stupid.

    We all know (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:19:49 PM EST
    Why he did that, and no one on the Obama team thinks it was stupid.


    Parent
    Not stupid (none / 0) (#239)
    by dws3665 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:07:35 PM EST
    Creative!

    Parent
    April (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:19:52 PM EST
    You are suspended and I suggest you find another web site to comment at. You will be banned when Jeralyn comes back.

    All of your comment will be deleted and whomever responds to her will aLSO be suspended.

    Master Media Manipulators (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Robert Oak on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:21:18 PM EST
    I'm very aware of these techniques in magically 1001+ newspapers all come out with the same "articles",  pretty much at the same time, so what the story release is how Obama is planning his general election team.

    I'm sorry but Alexrod puts Karl Rove to shame in my view and I've thought that for a very long time.

    Well, he just did it. (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:22:16 PM EST
    He claimed a pledged delegate lead.

    Not really (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:23:55 PM EST
    A real soft pedal I thought. Axelrod really dialed it back.

    Parent
    He absolutely said (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:35 PM EST
    that he has a majority of the pledged delegates. But you're right that this is not much a victory speech.

    Parent
    Isn't there a belief (none / 0) (#261)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:25:25 PM EST
    That politics is all about "perception"?

    There was not any doubt that he was moving away from the primary and staying in pre-GE against McCain until the convention makes it official.

    Parent

    Nice preemption in the last week or so (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:29:12 PM EST
    by the Clinton team to force that.  Starting with Clinton herself in the WV speech last week.  She put them on notice, and she was not playing games.

    Parent
    Within reach (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:22:57 PM EST
    That's how he phrased it.

    I don't think this is going to go over well..not at all. he is presenting himself as the nomine as if this is over.

    Why would he choose tonight to give this (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Teresa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:23:01 PM EST
    speech? After getting drilled, it makes no sense to me.

    Ah, here comes the be nice to Hillary part.

    Total and Complete Juxtaposition (5.00 / 5) (#37)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:24:48 PM EST
    Diametically opposed words with actions.

    Upstage her victory to tell people to be nice to her.

    Parent

    The 'Nice Offensive' (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:30:45 PM EST
    as lambert calls it.

    Parent
    "Offensively nice," rather (5.00 / 3) (#150)
    by lambertstrether on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:45:03 PM EST
    Screw 'em. It's just "Code Green" (stark reality mode) in the Pocket Guide.

    It means we've got leverage. Now to increase it.

    Parent

    Sorry for the misquote! (none / 0) (#224)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:02:24 PM EST
    We'll see how much more  leverage we get with the OR results.

    Parent
    To knock Hillary off the TV campaign coverage (5.00 / 6) (#167)
    by bridget on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:48:05 PM EST
    cause she just won really really big In KY
    and he wants people to forget about it -

    But the reality is that Hillary trounced Obama big time.

    Congrats Hillary!

    Parent

    When the MCM is trying to knock her off the news (none / 0) (#236)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:06:22 PM EST
    as well, it doesn't take much for them to focus on anything her opponent says or does.

    Yesterday, the host of WNYC's morning talk program said it seemed the press had "forgotten" about her enormous WV victory. I told the radio that they had not forgotten, they had deep sixed it. Didn't fit their narrative.

    Parent

    I suspect (none / 0) (#35)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:24:23 PM EST
    the Obama campaign will be announcing a bunch of SDs this week and that they feel this is the last "major" speech of the primary.

    Parent
    deja vu (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:27:49 PM EST


    Parent
    The last major speech of the primary? (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:29:12 PM EST
    No big speech after Montana and South Dakota? That would be a big mistake.

    Parent
    This speech (5.00 / 7) (#75)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:09 PM EST
    This speech is a mistake.

    Parent
    There may be others (3.00 / 0) (#89)
    by flyerhawk on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:33:42 PM EST
    and I am sure both he and Hillary will give speeches then and after PR.  

    But I believe they think they are ready to give the death blow to the Clinton campaign.  Whether they do that or not remains to be seen.

    Parent

    Why can't they learn (5.00 / 4) (#137)
    by Step Beyond on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:41 PM EST
    that every time they try to declare the race over, it doesn't play well?

    People hate those in the lead declaring their victory when clearly the race isn't over. It's why each time the meme for Clinton to quit has been put forth they have had to back peddle over it.

    Parent

    To Declare "Mission accomplished" when (none / 0) (#182)
    by bridget on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:52:48 PM EST
    it has not been accomplished yet

    can backfire in a big embarrassing way.

    Parent

    Nice! (none / 0) (#149)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:44:59 PM EST


    Parent
    what happened to Obama's "unity" pony? (none / 0) (#193)
    by Josey on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:54:31 PM EST
    Obamites aren't touting it anymore.
    Did they finally figure out - that too was an Obama farce?

    Parent
    I Suspect (none / 0) (#64)
    by Spike on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:28:31 PM EST
    It's the first "major" speech of the general election, commending Clinton and attacking McCain in a crucial swing state.

    Parent
    Flop sweat: needs to rally his needy NEW Dems (none / 0) (#250)
    by Ellie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:12:06 PM EST
    IMO, he's not directing this at Lib/Dem Middle Class parents, though this imperious message of how to parent is another condescending moment.

    He's playing on the neediness of the vaunted multitudes of "New" yoots (and the pennies and future dollars) he promised to bring to Dems. It's a way of re-p!ssing them off about "older" Dem voters like, perhaps, boomer parents who didn't create a Leave it To Beaver environment for them. (Single women moms, Step-monsters, and the whole panoply of "divisive" "ambitious" women who get disproportionately blamed for society's ills and individuals' failures and insecurities.)  

    Methinks they're losing interest, their support isn't solid, and they'll be gone once they take down Bad Monster Lady and it's summertime.

    Me-also-thinks they're not up for a solid GE showing, esp. in dollars and cents (as well as cents) and Donna Brazile's fantasies of ushering in all those Dumpling Dems will vanish and she'll have to wear that Outraged Smelt expression for years to come.

    Parent

    Does anybody have an opinion (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:23:17 PM EST
    as to why Obama doesn't bring out the family more often? The kids are really cute.

    BO just mis-pronounced Louisville: he called it Looeyville vs. Lu-ville. TONE DEAF I tell ya.

    All kids are cute (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:44 PM EST
    He said his were at the beginning of the speech.

    FOX has Brit Hume calling it a "peculiar" speech.

    Funny, but MSNBC, and CNN cable channels were unavailable in my area when he started speaking.


    Parent

    The kids have probably been in school. (none / 0) (#73)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:30:30 PM EST


    Parent
    He is now eulogizing Hillary (5.00 / 7) (#29)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:23:36 PM EST
    This is terrible.

    Women are going to hate this. I hate it.

    His opponent is now John McCain. He (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by Teresa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:30 PM EST
    just put her out to pasture. Shouldn't he win first? I don't mind him bashing McCain, but he could have said our opponent.

    Parent
    not believable (5.00 / 12) (#48)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:26:06 PM EST
    Obama is just a little too smug and transparent with his political calculations.  My dislike for him is only increasing.

    Parent
    If you're watching at all (5.00 / 7) (#108)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:36:32 PM EST
    you're doing better than I am. I'm afraid I give Obama the same treatment I give Bush: a middle finger and a press of the remote. Lordy, I hope I calm down by November.

    Parent
    can only watch in spurts (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:57 PM EST
    click, click back, click... I cannot imagine listening to the preacher voice for 4 years.  Grates on me even more than Bush.

    Parent
    I am like you. Turn him off or I would probably.. (5.00 / 2) (#187)
    by alexei on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:38 PM EST
    break my TV!  I treat him like I do GW - tune him out; otherwise, my hubby might divorce me because of what I might do.

    Parent
    Diplomatic (none / 0) (#200)
    by vigkat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:55:47 PM EST
    I owe you one.  That was supposed to be a "5" recommendation.  

    Parent
    never mind (5.00 / 1) (#216)
    by vigkat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:59:33 PM EST
    I fixed it.

    Parent
    Yes.. (5.00 / 8) (#56)
    by JustJennifer on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:27:43 PM EST
    I know he thinks he is being a dignified winner but his talk of Clinton like she is about to be put out to pasture was just wrong.  Yeah she has shattered barriers but she will continue to do so.  Her career is not over buddy!  But thanks for the pandering.  I am not buying the unity pony.

    Parent
    This speech will create more division... (5.00 / 5) (#30)
    by citizen53 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:23:53 PM EST
    than unity.

    Why? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:29 PM EST
    I thought the win idea was really really soft pedaled.

    going after McCain is perfectly fine. I think he did ok but the question of what the hell he is doing in Iowa is still hanging there.

    Parent

    With the Kentucky checkmark for Hillary (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:27:21 PM EST
    right below him. Strange indeed.

    BTW, uncovered story of the night: how much of his COH did he burn through this month to win Guam?

    Parent

    The whole point is to obliterate (5.00 / 4) (#169)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:48:21 PM EST
    the Kentucky numbers on the TV.  He's preempting her overwhelming win again, and very successfully.  It's annoying as hell, but it's smart politics if you're desperately hanging onto the narrative that you're the winner.

    Parent
    Pledged delegates won since Wisconsin (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:58:17 PM EST
    for the last three months, through Kentucky:

    Obama       409
    CLINTON     431

    He probably ought to have waited to do this victory dance about pledged delegates until after Oregon numbers came in, huh?

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 4) (#60)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:28:07 PM EST
    We'll have to see what happens.

    If the divide wasn't already as large as it could get, I think this whole thing will make it worse.


    Parent

    well everyone has a right to perceive it (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:28:51 PM EST
    however they want.

    If his speech was off-putting to some of us, then that's the way the cookie crumbled.

    Parent

    I suggest that Clinton supporters (5.00 / 8) (#77)
    by citizen53 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:23 PM EST
    will not take well to his declaration of victory.

    Instead of reaching out, he is pushing people away.  

    This is not unifying.  It's bad enough to deal with his supporters in the blogosphere, but when he talks about how Clinton has helped all women, that strikes a sour note to me.

    Parent

    victory dance (5.00 / 6) (#82)
    by Salo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:57 PM EST
    on the third quarter...even if he's being polite about it.

    Cup of tea and a biscuit, Hillary?  Oh didn't you do well in Kentucky.  He's declaring victory clearly and writing the epitaph of the campaign.

    five dollar donations my blooming arse.

    Parent

    He's in Iowa to divert attention from (5.00 / 6) (#123)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:18 PM EST
    yet another huge win--a 35 pointer following a 41 pointed last week.

    He's trying to keep the "inevitability" train chugging on the tracks.

    He doesn't want the pundits talking too long about what his huge losses in KY and WV may mean.

    So they've trumped up a silly "over the halfway mark of the delegate count minus MI and FL!" occasion totally as a diversionary tactic.

    Parent

    It's the continual use of the past tense talking (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:42:56 PM EST
    Clinton which is offputting to those of use who haven't accepted Obama's "math."

    The reporters were talking about that past tense tonight on NPR.

    Parent

    In a big nomination victory speech (5.00 / 4) (#159)
    by Raven15 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:47:12 PM EST
    ...you choose a location that symbolizes your success and allows you to talk about the campaign as a whole; you commend your opponent on her campaign; and you say it's time to move on to the next task--the general election. He did all of this, with plenty of rhetorical flourishes.

    There was nothing "soft-pedaled" about this, except the preview planted in the press.

    Another Obama I'm-not-doing-exactly-what-I-am-doing-moment. Orwellian, indeed.

     

    Parent

    The only thing lacking was an aircraft carrier and (none / 0) (#222)
    by derridog on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:44 PM EST
    a big "Mission Accomplished" sign.

    Parent
    I agree about being weird the speech isnt (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by athyrio on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:24:19 PM EST
    in Oregon, to thank them for a nice victory...He sure isn't too loyal to his voters is he?? I think he is worried he is slipping in Iowa....IMO...

    He can't be seen with those (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:42:50 PM EST
    liberal tree-hugging Oregonians anymore now that he is starting the GE fight. They got their rock concert the other day, they need to be happy with that and get under the bus where they belong.

    Parent
    Ok, this is snarky (5.00 / 4) (#36)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:24:37 PM EST
    but the lighting is not right.  What will the Kos people say.  

    I can't believe it. (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:38 PM EST
    These guys are really pushing the we have the most points at the start of the third quarter narrative.  Is it me or doesn't he sound like a VP candidate, rallying the troops around someone else?

    Well, he's campaigning (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:25:51 PM EST
    against John McCain and George Bush.  I think what he needs to do is learn how to campaign FOR Obama.

    Halperin (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by pantsuit chic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:26:10 PM EST
    This is what Mark Halperin has to say about TEH SPEECH...

    ONE OF THE BEST-WRITTEN SPEECHES OF THE CAMPAIGN.

    Can we discuss how gross the coverage is going to be tomorrow?

    He is dleivering the populist message (none / 0) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:27:47 PM EST
    better. this is the right speech to give.

    I think the set up was totally wrong and it steps on what could have been a heck of a good populist speech.

    I m bored now though so you guys need to report on it as I am going to do something else for a few minutes.

    Parent

    BTD this is not populism (5.00 / 4) (#72)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:30:26 PM EST
    too much verbiage.  He is not being bold and making the points that matter.  Throwing the kitchen sink.  

    Parent
    I think BTD is perturbed (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:32:03 PM EST
    The Democratic Party is imploding.


    Parent
    or that some of his theories are collapsing (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:18 PM EST
    but acceptance is a gradual process.

    Parent
    If that were the case (none / 0) (#179)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:51:46 PM EST
    I think BTD would let us know. He doesn't appear shy when it comes to stating his opinions.

    Parent
    We've moved into a different territory (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:54:40 PM EST
    Where BTD's desire to beat McCain will take precedence over his consistency and honesty.

    Parent
    IMO If people aren't brutally honest (none / 0) (#225)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:02:40 PM EST
    and Obama's team isn't responsive then I don't think all the blogging candy coating in the world will help him. Not that it appears the TEAM is adept at switching gears from what I have seen anyways. Everytime I turn around Team Obama appears to be building a bigger ditch.

    Parent
    Fine line (5.00 / 2) (#234)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:05:35 PM EST
    At some point even BTD has to turn into a cheerleader.  I'm sure he knows this.

    Parent
    crying on your sleeve? (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Salo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:46 PM EST
    he ll come on in the same old way and be beaten in the same old way

    Parent
    Boy, that Axelrod speechwriter should (none / 0) (#223)
    by derridog on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:01:50 PM EST
    get a big raise!

    Parent
    What a farce (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:26:28 PM EST
    This "old" timer, her parents, and old timer siblings are not "inspired for the first time in a long time". Not by him, anyway. How arrogant!!

    He does speak like a tent preacher. I can't hear what he says where he keeps raising and lower the tone of his voice.

    He certainly is dismissing her.

    Every effort is being made to include all the demographics that he is polling and showing so badly with in the primaries in his speech.

    Now he's campaigning for the GE. Just because he didn't come right out and say he WON, he is campaigning against McCain and Senator Clinton got a dismissive accolade for how she fought the good fight.

     

    Resistance is futile (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by nellre on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:26:44 PM EST
    We will be absorbed.

    Not

    No more praises of Hillary by Obama (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by TalkRight on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:26:49 PM EST
    can blind the fact that his campaign was sexist and he NOW wakes up and acknowledges that Hillary has done good for her daughters..

    He has lost our votes.. sorry.. but that is true.. Unless he ask forgiveness from Ferraro.. I will never vote for Obama.

    I. WILL. NEVER. VOTE. FOR . OBAMA. (5.00 / 7) (#53)
    by Angel on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:27:03 PM EST


    It does serve (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by vigkat on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:19 PM EST
    to strengthen one's resolve.  I can feel it hardening. This speech makes no sense within this context. None.

    Parent
    No offense (none / 0) (#134)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:31 PM EST
    But if you agree with the majority of what Hillary stands for, how can you even think that letting the Republicans hold on to the white house will be beneficial for the country over the next four years?

    Parent
    when your own party men behave in the most (5.00 / 5) (#166)
    by TalkRight on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:47:55 PM EST
    vicious, divisive, sexist and race baiting campaign .. its difficult to vote for them and reward the bad behavior.. read my lips.. I.Will.Never.Vote.For.OBAMA


    Parent
    What you said (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by Regency on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:58:08 PM EST
    Times everyone woman I know.

    Parent
    Comments like these are divisive (3.00 / 2) (#232)
    by kpatton1 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:05:26 PM EST
    "vicious, divisive, sexist and race baiting campaign"

    I would 100% disagree that any of these things describe Obama's campaign in any way.  His campaign might not have been perfect, but at the same time neither was any candidate's.

    The media and supporters of both candidates, on the other hand, is a different story.  But I don't think this should reflect poorly on either candidate.  If you want to play that game, Hillary also has a lot to account for.  (But I personally wouldn't blame her for any of it, since I know in reality she certainly isn't racist, sexist, or any such.  But neither is Obama) Criticize the media, the system, pundits, extremists, whatever- but at the end of the day, both candidates we have are pretty amazing, and I don't know why anybody wouldn't vote for either of them in November given a chance.

    Pro-Hillary != Anti-Obama

    Saying you wouldn't vote for one of them in November, or that you would vote for John McCain over either is what is truly divisive.

    Parent

    long winded explaination (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by Salo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:27:18 PM EST
    of an incomplete healthcare plan...

    not soundbytie!

    The will of the people (5.00 / 8) (#59)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:27:59 PM EST
    About 20,000 turnout for a caucus in Idaho and Obama nets 12 delgates.

    Hillary wins Pennsylvania by over 200,000 votes and nets 12 delegates. What a system!

    Is Ben Masel going to complain (5.00 / 5) (#61)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:28:14 PM EST
    that Obama just went after video games?

    The Iowa location and the speech itself (5.00 / 6) (#62)
    by Raven15 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:28:26 PM EST
    ...are much more than "sort of" declaring himself the winner. It's what he's doing, and the obedient media will say it's not. I didn't think I would get that worked up over this, but I despise Obama at this moment. I eagerly await his comeuppance.

    I can't watch him. (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by Iphie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:28:30 PM EST
    Especially not if it's a teleprompter speech -- I cannot stand the left teleprompter, now the right one, then back to left teleprompter sweep he does. I always want to shout "Look at me, look straight at me! I'm right here, where the camera is!" You would think that he would have enough of a familiarity with his speeches that he could look away from the text for even a brief moment. It's sort of a robot in profile effect.

    it's Change speech (5.00 / 6) (#65)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:28:42 PM EST
    # 1627...he says too much and says nothing.  That is why I like Hillary's speeches.  Clear, to the point.  Not all that verbiage to no where targeted to the Creative class,  if he thinks this is a GE speech he is mistaken.  

    Change (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:28:52 PM EST
    is making your kids turn off their video games?  Hmmm.  

    What exactly has he ever CHANGED in his life? (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by ig on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:37:06 PM EST
    I dont know of any accomplishments except 2 best selling books.

    Parent
    How about yesterday (5.00 / 4) (#142)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:42:39 PM EST
    when he said that we "can't all drive around in our SUVs, eat whatever we want and have our thermostats set at 72 degrees all year and expect other countries to say 'Ok.'" My problem with that, regardless that there was some truth in it, was that it was so damned condescending -- just like this thing with the video games. It is not the job of the President of the United States to tell us to turn off the video games or how much we eat -- doesn't he have bigger fish to fry then being the nation's nanny?

    Parent
    most people are not (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by bigbay on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:57:20 PM EST
    driving around in SUV's and eating whatever they want, with the temp at 72...just the guilty , upper-middle class maybe - i.e. his base

    Parent
    And don't give them Twinkies for (none / 0) (#189)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:41 PM EST
    breakfast. It's the Wellness portion of his healthcare plan.

    Parent
    Just told parents (5.00 / 6) (#68)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:29:03 PM EST
    to turn off the tv and read to their children once in awhile.

    I can tell you I am reading lots of posts from women who are really angry that he basically put Hillary out to pasture tonight.

    This speech is a mistake.

    correction (5.00 / 5) (#124)
    by nellre on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:21 PM EST
    attempted to put Hillary out to pasture.
    Funny thing though... voters aren't behind him on that.

    Parent
    He's energetic tonight and (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:30:02 PM EST
    acting less peevish. Does he have a teleprompter?  

    He just defined CHANGE as turning off the TV and reading to your kids once in awhile. Well, now we know.

    Good (5.00 / 6) (#86)
    by pantsuit chic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:32:15 PM EST
    I don't have any kids to read to, but I certainly shut the TV off. I can't stand his face, the sound of his voice, or anything about him.

    Parent
    Huh? He needs to be president to... (none / 0) (#133)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:29 PM EST
    ...make that point?

    Parent
    Bill Cosby says it all the time (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:47:27 PM EST
    without spending $200,000,000 on a campaign.  Doesn't seem very cost effective to me.

    Parent
    Okay so ... (5.00 / 9) (#80)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:31:41 PM EST
    Could someone explain to me how the increasingly popular dKossian argument (now cheerfully front-paged) that anyone who does not vote for Obama is a racist ....

    ... how is that any different than whackjob tele-evangalists claiming if you don't send them $100, you're going to hell?

    Yeesh.

    Was it always like that there?

    Cause it works (5.00 / 5) (#88)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:33:06 PM EST
    on guilt ridden liberals.  

    Parent
    But it also (5.00 / 6) (#98)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:28 PM EST
    Divides a General Electorate.

    Parent
    hoo boy (5.00 / 5) (#121)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:39:42 PM EST
    That's a pretty sad statement of affairs.

    So ... what now? Will Kos start having visions of 100 foot high Obamas and weeping on television that people must vote for Obama money or they're racists? You know - the Oral Roberts' schtickt?

    Or --- dear god, please let it be --- will it be more along the lines of Jim and Tammy? You know - mascara running down the face, wailing in addition to the weeping?

    Or perhaps just bumper stickers somewhere along the lines of "OBAMA IS MY CO-PILOT"?

    Parent

    Obama declared us (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:22 PM EST
    post racial.  So, will not work.  

    Parent
    Obama take the wheel? (5.00 / 4) (#141)
    by Maria Garcia on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:42:36 PM EST


    Parent
    It works on liberals. (none / 0) (#132)
    by masslib on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:26 PM EST
    Only liberals have white liberal guilt.

    Parent
    Obama's last pathological appeal... (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Salo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:38:26 PM EST
    ...for the general election.

    Parent
    This will not work (5.00 / 3) (#125)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:27 PM EST
    in the General Election.  

    Parent
    That's exactly what the MSM (none / 0) (#155)
    by JavaCityPal on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:45:57 PM EST
    that's been touting his praises is hoping for, too.

    Parent
    It's called a temper tantrum (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:45:13 PM EST
    It's sad when grown people act like children in need of a nap. Perhaps his next post will declare that if we don't all fall in line he will hold his breath until he turns blue? Or maybe he will declare if people don't vote for Obama they are poopyheads.

    Color me unimpressed. When my kids acted like he is acting I put them in timeout.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:47:36 PM EST
    I leave them to it. But ... yikes. Kind of an easily manipulated bunch, it seems.

    Parent
    well i'm sure you are (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Salo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:56:05 PM EST
    One must entertain the possibility that Obama was sent to wreck Democratic chances in 2008.

    He's a perfect vehicle for a loss just like Dukakis.

    Parent

    And of that 22% how many were AAs? (5.00 / 1) (#215)
    by alexei on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:59:24 PM EST
    or white liberals?  You have no clue - so stop calling people racists because they don't vote for Obama.  Look at the other numbers - he loses on the issues and all of the demographics except urban and AAs.  Even among liberals he lost.

    Parent
    So is race only a factor for those who (5.00 / 1) (#219)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:35 PM EST
    vote for Hillary? Or does that include those who don't vote for her?

    Parent
    erm (none / 0) (#184)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:52:58 PM EST
    U live in an Indian nation surrounded by - I dunno - ten? twenty? other Indian nations.

    Clinton won here.

    I work at a college that is predominantly minority - Native American, Black and Hispanic.

    Clinton is the favorite there.

    Half my family is Latino. Most of them support Clinton.

    Anecdotal yes, but the white claim don't wash in these parts.

    Parent

    hmm (none / 0) (#194)
    by CytoEric on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:54:37 PM EST
    and 15% said sex was a factor, right?  out of curiousity, how many people said race was a factor in the southeastern states that obama won, mississippi for instance?  

    Parent
    Wow (none / 0) (#199)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:55:41 PM EST
    I'm just curious, when you looked at those exit polls, did you look at the number of people who said gender was a factor?

    Do you even care?

    Parent

    Verbiage to no where ! (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:32:03 PM EST


    No TV for the kids (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:32:08 PM EST
    can't eat as much as you want, can't drive the SUVs, can't keep the temperature at 72 degrees.

    What will be ok when this is all said and done?

    Who knew? (none / 0) (#238)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:07:33 PM EST
    The answer to our problems is as simple as reading to the kids and turning the thermostat down. We should be "turning a corner" in no time.

    Parent
    WOW (5.00 / 6) (#91)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:33:58 PM EST
    He is totally declaring victory.

    I am done with my party.

    Thank you Iowa?!?!?

    This just makes me even more resolved not to ever vote for him.

    It sounded like Dean's scream to me (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:34:14 PM EST


    more like 2004 democratic convention (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by vicndabx on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:15 PM EST
    redux to me.

    Parent
    well is that a good thing? (none / 0) (#109)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:37:05 PM EST


    Parent
    NO.. (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:37:45 PM EST


    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#127)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:51 PM EST
    Well I remember that many people on Daily Kos thought that was a great moment for Dean.

    He is now running the Democratic party.  Go figure.

    Parent

    I didn't watch...what did he do? (none / 0) (#263)
    by Shainzona on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:29:26 PM EST
    Did he scream?

    Parent
    Clinton gave a good speech tonight (5.00 / 0) (#94)
    by kid oakland on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:34:26 PM EST
    Barack is not on his A-game, but he had some good moments. These are clearly the two strongest Democrats.

    It's no wonder this has been a close contest...that continues...

    Fwiw, Clinton has gotten better and better as a speaker. That's been clear.

    LOL (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:36:31 PM EST
    Too late.

    Obama will lose.


    Parent

    Why do you show up (5.00 / 5) (#111)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:37:15 PM EST
    when BTD leaves?  

    Parent
    So he can spin a fib, pis* off BTD which (5.00 / 6) (#129)
    by Teresa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:08 PM EST
    will then deprive us of BTD tomorrow when he suspends himself?

    Parent
    Up until several months ago (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by CCinNC on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:39:12 PM EST
    I couldn't bear to listen to her.  She sounds good now.  Not as lecturing.  Almost inspiring.

    Parent
    she was always a good speaker (5.00 / 4) (#135)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:41:31 PM EST
    It's just that the Obama cultists were shrieking so loud, you couldn't hear her.

    Parent
    Obama hasn't been on his A game (none / 0) (#158)
    by angie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:46:58 PM EST
    since February. I'm not watching this farce, but if you are saying he isn't "on his A game" it must really be bad.

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:50:21 PM EST
    He's reaching out.

    He'll say "I was even critical of Obama and they still won't take us seriously."

    Parent

    Change is (5.00 / 4) (#99)
    by Benjamin3 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:29 PM EST
    the Presumptuous Nominee of the Democratic Party getting trounced in KY by 36%, and then giving a Change speech in Iowa.

    Change change change...yawn yawn yawn (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by zebedee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:32 PM EST
    His change mantra worked when he firts appeared on the scene but he has nothing new to say. Far from being inspired, if this is how he would campaign until November the country will find this ultra-tedious.

    So.. how about that popular vote total? (5.00 / 4) (#101)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:35:43 PM EST
    Should Obama drop out after tonight?

    YES! (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Angel on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:37:35 PM EST


    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#172)
    by brad12345 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:49:46 PM EST
    The one in which, when you discount votes from five legitimate contests, and add in votes from two illegitimate contests, and refuse to even allocate Obama the uncommitted votes in a race in which hillary ran unopposed, then clinton is ahead by 20,000 votes?  If Obama can't win a meaningless metric when we change the rules after the fact to be as favorable as possible to Clinton, then he's an elitest, sexist, childlike idiot.  Or something.

    Parent
    Your comment isn't remotely (none / 0) (#185)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:31 PM EST
    accurate in numbers, and the anti-democratic values you espouse appall me.

    Parent
    Yes, yes he should! (none / 0) (#188)
    by RalphB on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:40 PM EST


    Parent
    If he's smart, he will be (none / 0) (#196)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:54:50 PM EST
    negotiating with Hillary about a joint ticket, at this point. I finally think BTD is right.
    Without a joint ticket, Obama has no choice---although of course I'd prefer to see Hillary in the top spot.

    Parent
    Did the speech end abruptly or what? (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:38:28 PM EST
    Is he trying to get off TV before the OR win turns into a squeaker?

    Is it possible for Obama to catch up in (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by MarkL on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:38:30 PM EST
    the popular vote count? If not, then I think Hillary should declare victory.

    yes it is possible... (none / 0) (#146)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:43:05 PM EST


    Parent
    wow (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by asadotzler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:40:52 PM EST
    I've been reading TalkLeft literally daily since its first days on the web and I really can't believe how it's turned into all-hillary, all-obama, all the time and how little the commenting audience here still cares to talk about crime and justice in the U.S.

    I never before felt the need to create an account here and comment because until about two months ago, this site had a majority of high-quality, on-topic blog posts and pretty decent comments.

    That's just not the case any more. Really sad.

    To bring this comment more on-topic so I don't get banned (though I care a lot more about reading high-quality posts and comments than making my own comments here) I'll just say that I think it's unfortunate that any discussion of Barak Obama (obviously not well liked here) would be allowed to take away from the otherwise positive message that TalkLeft has been delivering ever since the end of Bush v. Gore.

    You should go to DailyKOS (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:46:09 PM EST
    where the owner of the site is calling Kentuckians racists for voting for Hillary.  Then come back and tell us we're over the top.

    Parent
    what?? (none / 0) (#192)
    by asadotzler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:54:05 PM EST
    What does some other website have to do with TalkLeft losing its way?

    Parent
    I think your patience (5.00 / 1) (#256)
    by waldenpond on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:16:04 PM EST
    would be requested by Talkleft.  I am not a lawyer but enjoy reading all of the important posts.  I imagine it will get back to normal.    Some of us will be permanent readers and look forward to viewing increased discussion of the focus of the site.

    Parent
    Sorry to hear this (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by nellre on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:50:59 PM EST
    This site has been a safe haven for me and others to learn what my peers are feeling about an historic democratic primary. Historic.
    Some dislike Obama, but most just dislike Obamabots, as opposed to folks who are Obama supporters, know the issues, and can debate them in a civil manner.
    These Obama supporters do not seem to be very common in the blogosphere.

    Parent
    your safe haven (none / 0) (#202)
    by asadotzler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:56:23 PM EST
    OK. So it's a safe haven for a group of people for a few months and for that it's worth driving away people who have been coming here for the better part of a decade to read and learn about justice and the politics of crime in the U.S.

    Maybe I'm misreading you but it sure sounds selfish to me.

    Parent

    Kinda funny (5.00 / 5) (#230)
    by Steve M on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:03:09 PM EST
    that someone who reads this site "literally daily" never noticed until tonight that there are a lot of posts on the Democratic primary.

    Here's an idea: if what you come here for is the coverage of crime issues, don't go reading through the comments on the primary posts and then complain that they aren't what you're looking for.  Stick to the crime posts, if that's why you read the site.

    Parent

    Take it up with Jeralyn. It is her site and she (5.00 / 1) (#233)
    by Teresa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:05:28 PM EST
    is posting many of the election related posts. I've been here for a long time too, but get a grip. This is the closest election possible and that is what interests people right now. If Jeralyn wants to change that, she will.

    Parent
    There are posts here everyday on crime (5.00 / 3) (#235)
    by Joan in VA on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:05:57 PM EST
    and law. If that's what you come for, then read and comment on those. I don't see how these discussions diminish those.

    Parent
    Of course not. There still are many legal posts (5.00 / 3) (#247)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:10:57 PM EST
    here.  But the hosts of this blog know -- as we certainly have seen under Bush -- that the administration can control and even wreak havoc with the justice system, even revert us back to the pre-Magna Carta days without habeas corpus.  

    So politics and the law do have overlap, plus the hosts of this blog both are very involved in politics -- and this is a primary season, only once every four years.  You will get much more of what you like for three out of four years, won't you?  

    And this is a Tuesday primary night.  Even so, did you look downthread for the legal posts today?

    Parent

    I was an Obama supporter (none / 0) (#147)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:44:26 PM EST
    until his nimrod supporters turned me off to him.

    Don't want nothin' to do with him - or them.

    And I was always deeply suspicious of Clinton --- until I saw the viciousness of the Obama supporters' attacks on her.

    Might want to have a little talk with your team. They're doing a lousy job of it.

    Parent

    nothing to do with obama or clinton (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by asadotzler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:52:57 PM EST
    I don't care who you support for president and I don't care what is or isn't happening at other websites. I care about this site as a resource that I've valued for the better part of a decade slipping away from what it's been so good at.

    You all and your intra-party battle are degrading the value of this site. You're making people who don't care one way or the other about Obama/Clinton more likely to avoid this site alltogether.

    That's sad. Really sad. Perhaps you'll consider that this site was once more important and more valuable than as just a candidate support forum.

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#207)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:57:55 PM EST
    I can't disagree with what you say, and I can understand why you're upset.

    But there's another side to this, too. The party is in deep doodoo, and it makes no sense to me to say that it isn't.

    Perhaps you have solutions? And I don't ask that as snark - I'm quite serious. The only solution I've come up with is returning to my original position of politics has nothing to do with me, my vote doesn't matter anyway, it's all rigged ahead of time by people with money and big mouths.

    I'm not the only person feeling that way, you know.

    Parent

    solutions (none / 0) (#237)
    by asadotzler on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:07:15 PM EST
    I'm not trying to solve the country's problems, or even the Democratic party's problems. I'm trying to point out a TalkLeft problem.  

    The change that's come over this site the last couple of months as it became the 24/7 "safe haven" and venting ground for Clinton supporters and Obama hate-fest is a huge disappointment for people like me who have been coming here for years and years to read and learn about "The Politics of Crime," you know, the focus of this site -- at least it was until a couple of months ago when it transformed from "The Politics of Crime" into whatever it is now.

    My solution to this problem is to ask you all to take a look at the title of the site every once in a while and ask yourselves "are my comments here conducive to fostering a healthy discussion community for the politics of crime" and if the answer is "no" then consider changing your approach to participating in discussions here.

    Parent

    Well, I'm very new here (5.00 / 1) (#249)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:11:47 PM EST
    I think I'll just excuse myself from the site so you old timers can have it back.

    Parent
    i don't disagree (5.00 / 1) (#259)
    by dws3665 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:21:10 PM EST
    but can i just point out that we are in the middle of the closest primary in, um, modern history?

    maybe you could cut those of us who really care about politics some slack?

    Parent

    The least you could do (none / 0) (#260)
    by Raven15 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:22:57 PM EST
    ... is be straight and say you're disappointed in the generally pro-Clinton anti-Obama slant here rather than couching it in a complaint about straying from crime & justice discussions (which are still here and will no doubt once again dominate once the election is over).

    Parent
    We're trying to help him. The speech was bad. (none / 0) (#205)
    by catfish on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:57:30 PM EST
    I don't want to cry "waaa - sexist comment unfair" But I do want to inform people what MAY be turning female voters, heck atheist voters, heck voters over age of 25 off to this guy so he can do something about it.

    It was a tone-deaf speech.

    1. Saying he has a nice-looking wife at the beginning, which he does, just sets off something weird. Like there she is in her high heels with her young children. Is it 1955?

    2. Informing us that we're more inspired than we've been in a long time, is just weird.

    3. Speaking of Hillary in the past tense, right after she spanked him in Kentucky, before he officially clinched the nomination (we all think he WILL clinch, but he needs to finish at least one job in his life, unlike his first Senate term, ) when he already is running on a thin resume, little dues paid, and increasingly questionable judgement, is just weird.

    4. All of this while using a righteous preacher tone, talking a little too loud and droppin' his 'g's making not a speech but a sermon, is not appropriate.

    It's just...he needs...he needs help. He needs my help.

    Parent
    The speech is Quick-crete (5.00 / 6) (#140)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:42:35 PM EST
    for those whose determination not to vote for Obama was almost complete. -- Let's just cement that baby in today!

    The utter arrogance, the utter ungraciousness in victory, ungraciousness in defeat move.  I don't care what he says in the speech, it's the fact that he's making it here and now, that is utterly wrong.

    What has happened to the Democrats?  Where are they?  WHO are they?

    Pretty Much (5.00 / 2) (#157)
    by Edgar08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:46:33 PM EST
    Don't worry.  They'll hire people to pretend they're Clinton supporters and talk about how good they felt after the speech.

    Even that won't work.

    He's behind the wall now.


    Parent

    They used to be those who asked us (none / 0) (#258)
    by Cream City on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:17:46 PM EST
    for our votes, as one candidate did tonight, based on what the Dems and the candidate would do for us.

    The other one, what I got tonight from him, was that we ought to feel the light to vote for him, because then we would be in the "in crowd" and be the ones we've been waiting for, blah blah.

    I have not been waiting for me, I've been here all along, and I like to be asked.  And I stopped worrying about being kewl about when I became old enough to vote.

    Parent

    where is John Edwards tonight? (5.00 / 3) (#148)
    by diplomatic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:44:44 PM EST
    I was really hoping to hear from him.  It is now evidenct that he has no political capital whatsoever.

    The funny thing (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:49:37 PM EST
    is he HAD political capital before he endorsed.  Now it's spent.  Hopefully Barack gave him a wad of cash for his charity in exchange for his lack of capital.

    Parent
    Edward made a fool of himself.. (5.00 / 1) (#220)
    by TalkRight on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:42 PM EST
    no one remembers him anymore... it would have been a different story had he endorsed Hillary or at least stayed out of it..

    Parent
    I was wondering the same thing. (none / 0) (#178)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:51:26 PM EST


    Parent
    John Edwards (none / 0) (#186)
    by pantsuit chic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:31 PM EST
    Is brushing his hair.

    Parent
    Oh I think he has political capital... (none / 0) (#203)
    by cosbo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:57:12 PM EST
    but it's not about making an unelectable candidate electable. Edwards cannot make Obama electable anymore than he could Kerry.

    This primary season, Edwards strength was on the progressive agenda.

    Parent

    Edwards has more poor peoples' votes to invalidate (none / 0) (#246)
    by Lisa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:10:21 PM EST
    so where was he?  

    I used to defend the party when people said both parties were alike.  what a fool I was.

    Parent

    "Signed, Sealed, Delivered" (5.00 / 1) (#217)
    by lambertstrether on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:03 PM EST
    Can anyone confirm that was the background music?

    That would be "nice." Real.... "nice."

    That's (none / 0) (#227)
    by pantsuit chic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:02:52 PM EST
    Always the music at the end of his speeches.

    Parent
    Meh (5.00 / 1) (#221)
    by kayla on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:43 PM EST
    Barack Obama is extremely boring to me.

    I read Talk Left, Altercation, and The Onion (5.00 / 1) (#248)
    by dem08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:11:42 PM EST
    I check out Salon, Slate, Memeorandum, and Huffington Post.

    Being pro-Hillary should not equal being anti_obama.

    "The other side is worse" is usually not a good argument.

    I hope many of the posters here at Talk Left stay after the election to talk about our insane Criminal Justice System.

    I would give up "Politics" like that (snap!) sometimes when I see how the main function of American Politics is to divide us as a people, even and especially when we are mostly on the same side.

    Looks Like Another Mission Accomplished Speech (4.90 / 11) (#38)
    by Bob Boardman on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:24:50 PM EST
    I think this is a disaster...

    A loss by 250,000 in Kentucky is on the TV screen as he speaks.

    He's not winning my vote with stunts.... we already had a president good at pulling off stunts.

    Isn't it bizarro? (5.00 / 5) (#154)
    by kempis on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:45:57 PM EST
    A loss by 250,000 in Kentucky is on the TV screen as he speaks.

    Before I flipped him off and walked out of the room, I noticed that and thought "how weird."

    Yes! We have reached the legendary half plus one mark in the delegate count! All thanks to the two delegates we picked up in our humiliating, 35 point loss in Kentucky, which is an improvement over our humiliating 41 point loss in West Virginia just last week! If those hillbilly states mattered, we'd be in trouble. Fortunately, they're in the crapper with FL and MI! Yes, they are! Yes, they are! And later tonight we'll hear from a real state, Oregon! "

    Gimme a frickin' break....

    Parent

    Why do you bother? (none / 0) (#13)
    by andgarden on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:17:58 PM EST


    Coming Back Full Circle (none / 0) (#21)
    by Spike on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:21:47 PM EST
    It's been an amazing race since Jan 3. I'm proud to be a Democrat.

    Jan 3 was my birthday (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:32:49 PM EST
    Worst. Birthday. Ever.

    Parent
    Within reach of the nomination (none / 0) (#22)
    by Stellaaa on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:21:52 PM EST
    "a cold winter's night" " a whisper in Springfieild"

    Oh, I knew we'd be going back to the whisper (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:33:55 PM EST


    Parent
    a yawn in Georgia (5.00 / 6) (#104)
    by Kathy on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:36:00 PM EST


    Parent
    a THUD in Texas (5.00 / 2) (#228)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:02:53 PM EST
    ...

    Parent
    Did BO congratulate Hillary for KY? (none / 0) (#152)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:45:16 PM EST


    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#218)
    by CCinNC on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:00:24 PM EST
    he did.

    Parent
    Anywhere I can see a transcript? (none / 0) (#165)
    by cawaltz on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:47:43 PM EST
    I prefer to read and form my own opinions then get my opinion from the punditocracy.

    My first thought is that this is a mistake but who knows maybe I will be shocked.

    Read it (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by pantsuit chic on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:55:13 PM EST
    Here

    Parent
    Ditto transcript (none / 0) (#191)
    by lambertstrether on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:53:58 PM EST
    Thanks....

    Parent
    OK now this theory might sound a tad wacked (none / 0) (#168)
    by athyrio on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:48:07 PM EST
    but could the new poll in North Carolina be the result of the West Virginia election and others that have sorta given them permission to vote their true feelings instead of the fear of being called racists??

    what new poll in NC? (none / 0) (#180)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:51:47 PM EST


    Parent
    New poll in NC about which is a thread (none / 0) (#244)
    by athyrio on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:09:56 PM EST
    a bit before this one showing Hillary beating McCain in the GE but Obama losing to McCain...changes the dynamics entirely in that state....

    Parent
    this new poll (none / 0) (#253)
    by Monda on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:14:09 PM EST
    SUSA (courtesy of Mydd)

    http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/20/20245/8946

    North Carolina

    Clinton     49
    McCain      43

    McCain      51
    Obama       43

    Crazy ...

    Parent

    Rise, Women of Oregon, Rise (none / 0) (#170)
    by Ellie on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:48:41 PM EST
    This is a good time for all voters who are in favor of AUTHENTIC global human rights to rise up and be heard.

    I'm interested in the votes and turnout from all those Disposable Dems and Irrelevant Voters who don't figure in Squint'n'Win Unity Party Mapth.

    But mostly, seeing what the P!ssed Off Uppity Problematic White Women got up to today.

    Text of speech (none / 0) (#174)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:50:04 PM EST
    LINK

    don't forget to swig some kool-aide before reading.

    Americanincanada, for the time being (none / 0) (#208)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Tue May 20, 2008 at 09:57:58 PM EST
    I'm sort of an American in Canada as well. It's an interesting perspective isn't it, seeing it from a bit of a distance. What is your sense of how Canadian media is covering the election? Ashamed to say, I don't see much of it myself.

    I'm affiliated with an Art College here and the kool kidz just don't see the same halo on Obama.

    Parent

    it has been eye opening (none / 0) (#229)
    by americanincanada on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:03:08 PM EST
    for me. Living here for the last 10, almost 11 years has been a revelation.

    I was here during Sept. 11, here for the last 2 elections and will be here for this.

    Most Canadian media cover this fairly. CAnadians are far more into our politics than there own. Obama won here during the democrats abroad primary but the turnout here was low.I think most voted absentee as I did.

    Obama has been exposed here as sort of an empty suit, something Canadians have seen far too many time. Bill Clinton is very popular here.

    My partner and I went to see him speak here just before Hillary anounced. He spoke in a large arena and it sold out immediately.

    Parent

    Dancing with the stars (none / 0) (#226)
    by Monda on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:02:43 PM EST
    Kristi Yamaguchi won it :). That's what I'm watching.  No MSM.  No loose change speeches, no "mission accomplished" bs.  

    But you guys are braver than me, so thank you for blogging "it".

    It was nice to see the clearly better dancer win! (none / 0) (#245)
    by jawbone on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:09:58 PM EST
    And maybe having the first woman to get first place since the first year will carry over....

    She and her partner really were good--just watched the past two days, but, wow.

    Parent

    Return to the scene of the crime (none / 0) (#240)
    by txpolitico67 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:08:50 PM EST
    is more like it.  Obama is in Iowa because he needs to shore up his, I would think, a loss he has in supporters post-Jeremiah Wright.

    I have a few friends from IA:  Jefferson City and Des Moines.  They caucused for him but regret it now.  One of these people (co-worker) is a pretty good church-going lady.  Wright COMPLETELY offended her.  She wish she could take back her actions in their caucuses.

    And regarding OR,  I posted a comment about that the other day here.  I feel that BHO is in IA because he needs to show that he connected with rural/white voters SOMEWHERE (why not Idaho or Utah or WISCONSIN?)

    I think a lot of these people have buyer's remorse.  Except for the obvious groups who will vote for him no matter what, his demographics are shrinking.

    And fast.  And all the media darling/shoving down our throats ain't helping him. At. All.

    isn't Obama up over 50% (none / 0) (#255)
    by dem08 on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:15:02 PM EST
    among Democrats in the Gallup Poll. I know Polls, especially Tracking Polls, change endlessly, but are you certain that Obama is so unpopular?

    Do.Not.Want. (none / 0) (#262)
    by chrisvee on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:29:07 PM EST
    His speech is not helping.  Here are a couple of suggestions to get him started (subject to wordsmithing by smarter folks than me).

    1. Today, Senator Clinton gave an interview discussing the sexism that the media has displayed in covering this primary race.  I agree with Senator Clinton.  I've been shocked at some of the ways in which the media -- and sadly, some of my colleagues - have chosen to speak about her.  I'm sorry that I haven't spoken up sooner but let me be clear -- these types of remarks have no place in this campaign or in public discourse.

    2. Voters are turning out in record numbers during these primaries with one purpose in mind -- to vote Democratic.  I hope to be our party's nominee but regardless of the outcome of this process, the Democratic Party will present the people of this country with the best choice to repair the damage of the Bush years.  John McCain is not an option that is good for us or our country.

    3. We are the Democratic Party.  We count all the votes.  We will finish this primary and we will seat MI and FL.


    48% in OR and his lead is shrinking 57-43 (none / 0) (#264)
    by thereyougo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:41:03 PM EST
    I say he ends up with single dig. win, maybe under 8

    i think dewey declared victory too. (none / 0) (#265)
    by cpinva on Tue May 20, 2008 at 10:44:35 PM EST
    since the rules established for the primaries were themselves broken by the rule makers, that would seem to make them null and void.

    i noticed the most recent counts from oregon only reflected 40% of precincts reporting. perhaps a declaration of victory by the obama camp might be a tad premature. especially since his margin dropped from the first reports i saw.

    Some people got 2 ballots in OR (none / 0) (#266)
    by thereyougo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:06:09 PM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/6c27xd

    hmmm........

    Some people got 2 ballots in OR (none / 0) (#267)
    by thereyougo on Tue May 20, 2008 at 11:06:33 PM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/6c27xd

    hmmm........

    Obama To Sort Of Declare Victory Tonight? | 262 comments (262 topical)