home

GOP Talking Points

By Big Tent Democrat

Speaking for me only.

Some Left blogs have discovered a concern about using Republican talking points against our Democratic candidates for President. For example, Chris Bowers writes:

Still, I find stuff like [Clinton's experience] quote repugnant, and it strikes me as a bad strategic move regardless of who wins the primary. McCain is very dangerous and building him up as experienced, with the implication that he's ready to lead our military, is, shall we say, a bad thing.

I agree. Though I think the notion that McCain will not be viewed as experienced is rather ridiculous. Still, no Dem should help with that. That said, I do not recall Chris or any other blogger agreeing with my denunciation last October of John Edwards, Chris Dodd and Barack Obama for their attacks on Hillary Clinton's character and honesty. For example, last October the Barack Obama campaign launched an all out assault on Hillary Clinton's honesty that continues to this day:

[An Iowa voter] . . . with a little help from the Obama campaign, which "classed up" his language, . . . told the story about Hillary's slipperiness to introduce Obama's speech on Social Security Oct. 27. This was the kickoff of his announced effort to step up his confrontations with Hillary Clinton. The campaign is also peddling Bowman's story about Clinton's refusal to share her views publicly, and launched a new ad on Social Security. In his own remarks, Obama described Clinton's Social Security position as, "You should hedge, dodge, and spin, but at all costs, don't answer."

This is not the first time Obama has promised to take on the front-runner in earnest. Until now, it's been mostly talk. My suspicion has been that Obama was trying to get the press to do some of his work for him. Political reporters love process stories, and if they write enough about Obama's coming challenge to Clinton's truthfulness, Obama may be able to avoid the heavy lifting himself. In the Oct. 30 debate, Obama will show us if he's willing to do it himself.

By challenging Clinton's honesty, Obama is not only going after one of her relative weaknesses, according to polls (PDF). He is trying to turn one of the front-runner's strengths into a liability. Clinton is an extremely careful campaigner. She has done so well so far because she has made very few mistakes. Obama wants voters to read her caution as a sign of duplicity instead of thoughtful maturity.

Of course, in the infamous October 30 debate, Tim Russert, Brian Williams, Chris Dodd and John Edwards did most of Obama's heavy lifting in attacking Clinton's character, but Obama piled on. The protests from the Left blogs were nonexistent. Mine was a lonely voice. It is ironic that NOW is when the Left blogs raise their voices calling for Democratic unity on this.

In the linked article, John Dickerson of Slate wrote:

But in calling Hillary untrustworthy, Obama risks damaging his brand as the high-minded candidate. . . .

There was no such risk. With the Media and the Left blogs in the tank for Barack Obama and rooting for and leading the character attacks against Hillary Clinton, there was never a risk for Obama in going negative.

While I agree with the complaint against Clinton's latest attack on Obama which does laud John McCain's experience, I find the tears being shed now in some quarters shamelessly hypocritical.

< Zogby: Clinton Leads In TX, A Tie In Ohio | Primary Prediction Thread >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Why (none / 0) (#1)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:36:49 AM EST
    are we so afraid to go on experience? I'll never understand it. We've basically ceded the military to the Republicans since 2000. It's ridiculous and does no Democrat any favors.

    The thing is (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:40:33 AM EST
    There's nothing untruthful about what Clinton said.

    McCain will run on experience, and all that comes with that, while Obama will run on judgment and his opposition to the war from day 1.

    There's a clear jab in there at Obama's 2002 speech, and that that speech is the raison d'etre of the Obama campaign, but in the end, there's nothing untruthful about what Clinton said.

    It's just that she said it.

    She never said who would be a better president.

    Does not matter if it is truthful (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:42:05 AM EST
    A lot of things are truthful that should not be said by our candidates.

    Parent
    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:45:33 AM EST
    And I also think that whenever I hear Obama attack the Clinton Presidency, acting as though it were the horrible 90's under Bill and called HRC dishonest and untrustworthy.

    Parent
    But you see (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:47:20 AM EST
    That is untruthful.

    The 90s were pretty good. Not perfect, but judged against any other administration, America weighs in and gives it a whopping 65%.

    Parent

    Exactly. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:50:55 AM EST
    But I've heard it so many times. To the point even of that Obama mailer claiming Clinton responsible for the defeats in 1994...which was not a referendum on his Presidency, but a culmination of Republican strategy they'd been planning since 1964.  Clinton, the only President to leave office with a 65% approval rating. How quickly we forget.  

    Parent
    So lets say then (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:56:53 AM EST
    Lets say I agree that both are things we should not say.  That Clinton said something she should not say.

    Obama said something we should not say that is also untruthful.

    Clinton said something that we should not say that is also truthful.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:50:28 AM EST
    It matters more to me (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:45:30 AM EST
    Than it does to others.

    It's a buffer I put between me and insanity.

    Parent

    Attack his supposed strength. (none / 0) (#4)
    by lilybart on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:43:30 AM EST
    This tactic worked for Rove.

    Time we played dirty.

    I think there is a difference (none / 0) (#8)
    by p lukasiak on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:48:42 AM EST
    Throughout the campaign, Clinton has been trying to make the "Red Phone" ad point in a much more nuanced and subtle way and without using GOP talking points -- to little effect.  The "red phone" ad became necessary because Obama's lack of national security credentials will be an issue if he gets the nomination, and its something that Democratic voters need to consider when choosing a candidate for November.

    I'm far more disturbed about Obama's use of GOP frames, not just because of the impact it will have on a Clinton candidacy, but because of its influence on how the issues get framed in the future.  

    Certainly the outrage (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:52:56 AM EST
    about this quote is all out of proportion to its importance. McCain experienced? Stop the presses!!

    Especially when compared to not only the silence, but the cheering for the attacks on Hillary's character in the Left blogs.

    The outrage is coming from the wrong sources. They have no credibility.

    Parent

    GOP framing--like the healtcare issue Obama (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jawbone on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:15:36 AM EST
    uses against Hillary (and Edwards), mandates?

    Or, the SocSec is in terrible crisis (which it is not) and no mention of Medicare (which is in trouble)?

    Using the Harry and Louis lookalikes to attack Hillary?

    Attacking Bill Clinton's presidency?

    I've been amazed for months now. Initially, even the blogs now favoring Obama were taken aback. Krugman was linked to about his concerns about Obama's healthcare plan. But now I don't see many links to even Krugman nowadays. Astonishing that the only NYTimes columnist to call things accurately about Bush's campaign promises is now personal non grata at several sites....

    Parent

    We've (none / 0) (#12)
    by rooge04 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 07:56:19 AM EST
    ceded national security to the Republicans. Why? And why does even bringing up who is better to lead as Commander in Chief make so many left blogs go insane as though it were an attack? It's what the Republicans have been beating us down with the last 2 elections, yet we continue to ignore it and or demean that angle at our loss.

    Parent
    Lets Talk About National Security Framing (none / 0) (#39)
    by MO Blue on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:42:10 AM EST
    How does the statements that Obama is considering Hagel and Luger for Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State play into the DEMOCRATS being strong on national security and defense? This seems to me to imply that the Dems are not capable in these areas and need Republicans in those positions to have any credibility.  

    Parent
    No, I think it is worse than that (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Virginian on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:14:39 AM EST
    I think it is while ceding the "argument" to Republicans, it is instead of attempting to regain the ground for Democrats, co-opting what you've ceded to them by making them the arbiters on the issue.

    Its basically like saying "You're right, you guys are so much better at us than this, so I'm not even going to try to do better, you guys can have your way with it and do whatever you think best." Its the antithesis of leadership and the antithesis of being a fighter; its giving up without trying. (Albeit, giving up on one thing to get another...the presidency).

    Parent

    I am not sure being a Navy flyboy who got (none / 0) (#14)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:04:21 AM EST
    shot down in Vietnam is experience to be president. There is more to the job than being commander in chief.  He may have the experience to lead a flight squadron or helping lobbyists or marrying rich trophy wives, but I don't view that as qualifying to be president.

    I would point out most former generals were average Presidents (Washington and Jackson being exceptions).

    No-one should denigrate McCain's service, but it isn't an automatic qualifier for the presidency. If that were true, I can think of a decorated WWII bomber pilot who should have won the presidency in 1972. Jimmy Carter had military experience, show me the Republican who thinks Jimmy Carter was qualified to be president.

    Um (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:06:02 AM EST
    He has been a Senator forever.

    Parent
    See lobbying comment (none / 0) (#19)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:24:16 AM EST
    Its buried in there to be sure. But what exactly beyond McCain Feingold has he accomplished in the Senate? His fellow Republicans hate his namesake bill. Where is his leadership there with his fellow Republicans?

    McCain's accomplishments:

    1. Naval Service and POW incarceration
    2. Keating 5 Scandal and continued association with lobbyists to the point his campaign manager Charlie Black does his lobbying straight from the double talk express.
    3. McCain-Feingold. With the help of Russ Feingold he got one good government bill through that GOP presidential candidates ignore and that McCain wants to (and probably will) ignore.

    If he has done something else, please tell me so I don't continue in this vein.  

    Parent
    Experience does not equal accomplishments (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:28:01 AM EST
    Perhaps, but his experience is based upon his (none / 0) (#21)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:46:48 AM EST
    accomplishments arguably.  Ok, we will leave out his accomplishment- McCain Feingold.

    McCain's experience:
    Being a POW
    Helping a crook named Keating
    Giving lobbyists free rein in his campaign
    Figuring out how to use McCain Feingold as collateral for a loan

    Anything else?

    Experience seems to be a rather ephemeral.

    Finally I could point out that Obama's experience is being a professor, a state legislator, and a senator and his detractors would ask- what's he accomplished? I could point out that HRC's experience is being a lawyer, Arkansas' First Lady, First Lady of the US, Senator and her detractors would ask the same question- what has she accomplished? The lists will come out and then they will be debated.

    Conclusion: just as the rules are often different for men and woman, they are also different for Democrats and Republicans. Because if a Democrat claims experience,  the question turns to accomplishments. Why shouldn't these rules apply to McCain?  

    Parent

    ugh (none / 0) (#32)
    by mindfulmission on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:07:05 AM EST
    If you really believe that McCain would not win EVERY experience argument, I am not sure what to tell you.

    John McCain, by almost any analysis, is clearly more experienced than either Clinton or Obama, and it isn't even close.

    The experience argument is simply not an argument that the Dems will win this year.

    Parent

    I think you missed my point. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:10:46 AM EST
    And yes I am skeptical of his claims of experience.

    Why is McCain "more experienced"? Longevity? Are you saying he is old?

    Experience is more than just hanging around.  

    Parent

    McCain also has a lot of good will (none / 0) (#24)
    by Kathy on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:51:04 AM EST
    toward him in the senate for working behind the scenes on a lot of bills, for stepping out of the way, for not taking credit, etc.  This kind of stuff matters when you are trying to get your party to back up behind you.

    Though, I have to say that this "protect Obama" stuff annoys me for exactly the reason stated in this thread: where were they when Clinton was getting abused?  Where were they when Michelle Obama's brother said of Clinton, "If I was a woman, I'd be embarrassed for her"?  Where were they during Shuster-gate? (Oh, yeah, they were on Shuster's side...)

    The kidgloves handling of Obama reminds me of when I first started working on a gay newspaper all those many, many years ago, and we were so hesitant to run any story that showed gays in a bad light.  Consequently, a lot of folks got a pass on absolutely awful behavior.

    It's actually kind of insulting when you think about it, because it confers upon the person being protected a kind of "special needs" status.  And anyone-anyone-who thinks the Clintons have gone after Obama without restraint should really get their heads checked.  This is nothing like what a ge would bring.

    Parent

    Watching Obama "handle" the questions (none / 0) (#31)
    by jawbone on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:03:07 AM EST
    yesterday made me so sad that he hadn't taken some time to get more experience--just the experience of dealing with the press, of running another election where he might have had some actual competition, time he might have used to hold actual hearings on important subjects, time to mature.

    He looked uncomfortable, then a bit ticked off in the manner of Dear Leader--and rambled a bit before cuttings things off. He didn't seem to have a game plan.

    Compare and contrast with McCain speaking quietly, saying not much, but literally wearing out the reporters' questions. He simply stayed that day until there were no more questions. Then, when he said he had answered every question, he had some basis for being nonresponsive.

    I do wish Obama had waited--he may have felt he couldn't afford 4-8 years of having to take stands on issues, but I think he would have been a better candidate with more experience of national politics under his belt.

    Parent

    It occurred to me that... (none / 0) (#35)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:19:11 AM EST
    he was "handling" things like a president in his second term...who doesn't feel he has to answer the questions.

    If that flies? well, I don't think it will.

    Parent

    Its a pretty obvious thing. (none / 0) (#16)
    by ajain on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:07:48 AM EST
    I think it is ridiculous to even think that McCain would have not made that argument himself if Clinton had not done it. I mean that 3am ad would have happened anyway, sooner or later. Obama should learn to fight it now rather than figure it out later.

    Also, his judgment argument is not gonna hold much water against McCain.

    I think it would hold more (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edgar08 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:12:33 AM EST
    Water than it does with Clinton, but damn this is the biggest microphone I got at this point.

    The GE will run on two rails.  Experience vs. Judgment.   Or.... Youth Icon/Inspiration/Change vs. Old guy who talks funny/boredom/more of the same.

    Whichever rail the MSM spends more time on will impact the election greatly.


    Parent

    If Obama gets the nom ... (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Robot Porter on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:47:34 AM EST
    I think we need to tread very lightly on the age question.  The GE electorate skews older.  Democrats need older voters to win.  Obama has always had a weakness with older voters.

    The problem with McCain isn't that he's too old.  It's that he's wrong on the issues.  He's old enough to know better.

    Parent

    I doubt it will the later. (none / 0) (#18)
    by ajain on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:20:55 AM EST
    Because MSM like McCain.

    Parent
    He's too "old" (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by wasabi on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 09:02:22 AM EST
    The Democrats would be nuts to make McCain's age an election issue.  If Obama wins, he will lose a significant protion of the seasoned Democratic voters who value experience.  He already panders to the youth, and more "ageism" will surely alienate even more of the folks 60+.

    Parent
    I don't think the MSM (none / 0) (#25)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:51:07 AM EST
    will like the "old guy" meme, since some of them are pretty old themselves.

    And I don't think the old meme will fly with core Democrats either.

    Parent

    just (none / 0) (#42)
    by myed2x on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:58:16 AM EST
    hoping Hillary isn't a clip in a McCain ad if OB does get the nomination, gah, talk about shooting her own party in the foot if that scenario comes true.

    Parent
    Talk Left is (none / 0) (#22)
    by sas on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:47:02 AM EST
    a good place to be - posters are pretty civil here.

    Go to HuffPo if you want to be disgusted by things people say - mostly against Hillary, but there are some anti-Obama posters too.  

    That site is awful.

    HRC goes about as low as (none / 0) (#26)
    by BlueMainer on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:52:30 AM EST
    any GOP'er: Osama

    How can she defend something like this?

    D-Punjab (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:41:14 AM EST
    1) Volunteer on the phones and 2) Really true? (none / 0) (#28)
    by jawbone on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:55:12 AM EST
    How can we know (none / 0) (#29)
    by kmblue on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:56:13 AM EST
    this story is true?

    Parent
    The MCM is the problem: No vetting from them (none / 0) (#27)
    by jawbone on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 08:54:17 AM EST
    So Hillary has to do some of the vetting of Obama for them--and then it becomes he said/she said.

    As I read in a comment yesterday about the NAFTA situation, when the AP's Nedra Pickler reported on the Canadian memo, instead of leading with the news of the release and its content, she lead with the Obama defense and rebuttal.

    Then, it became not CVA said/he denied/CVA supported with named Obama staffer/they denied and spun/memo said/he denied/and so forth with the Clinton campaign weighing in--it became she, Clinton camp said/he said, Obama camp said.

    On NPR the memo story was introduced as the Clinton campaign today accused Obama of waffling (can't recall exact word, and Obama said or his camp said something in defense and counterattack. Actual situation now secondary or tertiary. Or ignored.  

    That's how it's done if the MCM is protecting someone.  It's not that the press reported, or a third party released info--it's Camp A accused or attacked with some independently reported info and Camp B was allowed to reply/rebut.  Then the issue never gets scrutiny!

    If the vaunted free press plays lapdog games with a candidate, attacking the other strong ones in a primary, Edwards as too angry, yet a girly man, and Hillary hit with everything imaginable, the only way to get information to the public is to feed it to an MCM outlet which will research and publish it, talk about the situation, or put it into ads.  Now, trying to inform the public about anything in brief ads is not only nearly impossible unless there's groundwork, it's incredibly expensive.

    Once again, we are so ill served by our MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media). During the 2000 campaign, I was not on the web or even knew about blogs--Krugman was my one published source of sanity and accurate information, along with a few good reports never "talked up" on the talk shows and often not covered ont he broacast news.

    NPR was better back then. For example, when I heard that Al Gore had claimed to discover Love Canal, I was surprised--and worried. I knew he had not and couldn't believe he was saying he had. But, I trusted the NYTimes and WaPo much more back then, despite their refusal to ever apologize for their Whitewater coverage. So I was worried about Al Gore, and my enthusiasm was dampened.

    Until, of all places, This American Life covered the Love Canal thing: The class where he spoke, and the NYTimes reporter and the WaPo reporter both "misheard" what he said, has taped the entire visit with Gore. They had on tape what he actually said, they complained to the WaPo, there was some quiet correction, and the tale has lived on to this day.

    But, I knew exactly what had happened--bcz of This American Life! There still is good, solid reporting on NPR--and in many newspapers--it's just often buried in the usual MCM-type coverage.

    B

    Chris Bowers . . . (none / 0) (#36)
    by Doc Rock on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:21:51 AM EST
    . . . has been a somewhat blindered Obama advocate, but he's been up front with his advocacy from the outset and Open Left can still be read profitably with that in mind.  

    Nevertheless, folks need to grow up and realize 'what goes around, comes around'!

    I don't agree at all (none / 0) (#37)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 10:39:07 AM EST
    I don't have a problem with Clinton attacking Obama.  Politics isn't paddycake. Attacking the other candidate is part and parcel of winning.  It was when Adams was running against Jefferson.  It is today.

    What I DO have a problem with is Hillary building up McCain in an attempt to attack Obama.  

    This comment achieves nothing for her but helps McCain, should Obama win the nomination.

    Your distinction is absurd (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:43:16 PM EST
    Indeed what Obama said about hillary is much worse.

    Perfectly hypocritical of you.

    Parent

    Clinton's GOP tactics (none / 0) (#41)
    by robertearl on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 11:46:16 AM EST
    After her GOP like tactics on Obama, I have decided that if she gets the nom, I'm voting for Nader. I don't know how long this feeling will last, but as of now, I'm really not impressed by Senator Clinton.

    Regardless of your personal feelings (none / 0) (#43)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:18:24 PM EST
    you really have to consider the alternative.  John McCain as President is a pretty sobering thought.

    Parent
    What GOP tactics? (none / 0) (#44)
    by tree on Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 12:37:31 PM EST