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Move On Urges Super Delegates To Support "The Will Of The People"

By Big Tent Democrat

For once I agree with Move On. Via TPM, which fails to note that Move On has endorsed Obama (poor journalism again from TPM by ME. My apologies to Greg Sargent) :

"The superdelegates are under lots of pressure right now to come out for one candidate or the other," reads the petition from MoveOn, which has endorsed Obama. "We urgently need to encourage them to let the voters decide between Clinton and Obama -- and then to support the will of the people."

Of course the problem with this is Move On, an Obama endorser, does not REALLY mean the will of the people, which is reflected in the popular vote, but in the pledged delegates, which are selected in a very imperfect and undemocratic process.

The rules allow Super Delegates to vote their conscience. That is their design. But I believe they should reflect the will of the people, as reflected in the VOTES of the people. That means following the popular vote. Move On seems not to believe in the will of the people, despite its protestations to the contrary.

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    I think all the super delegates should be (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:39:37 PM EST
    sequestered until the convention starts.

    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:45:44 PM EST
    Sequestered (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:54:00 PM EST
    INCLUDING  Donna  Brazille.    

    How  she  got  to  stay on  CNN  as  a  commentator   while   Begala  and  Carville did not,    speaks  volumes.

    Parent

    She gets her very own room and (none / 0) (#77)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:58:15 PM EST
    room service.  Absolutely no mingling.

    Parent
    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:45:00 PM EST
    Are  they  afraid  she'll  say they're   racists  if  they don't?

    Parent
    Superdelegates (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:43:12 PM EST
    can vote however they want. Don't like it? Change the rules for the next election. The horses have already left the gate in this one.

    True (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:44:46 PM EST
    But I am "suggesting" they can vote for the popular vote winner.

    Here is an interesting twist though - should the popular vote of NON-Democrats count in the Democratic Convention?

    Can we get the total of actual Democrats voting, via Exit Polls?

    Parent

    who are you calling (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:58:36 PM EST
    "the establishment candidate"?

    Parent
    If Obama holds a healthy lead (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:06:39 PM EST
    in the popular vote, then he should be the nominee.

    If Clinton does, all else being relatively equal, then she should be the nominee.

    the Establishment Candidate, Barack Obama, should not be able to trump the wiil of the people.

    sounds like we agree.

    Parent

    Mr. Count-every-vote (none / 0) (#35)
    by AF on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:59:45 PM EST
    Wants to disenfranchise 20% of all primary voters? :)

    What this conversation shows me, ultimately, is if the pledged delegate count is close, the super-delegates will be able to vote their hearts and then find an argument to justify it.  

    Though I must say,  the count-only-Democrats argument is not going to be very convincing if Obama wins pledged delegates AND the popular vote (including FL)!

    Parent

    I wanted to disenfranchise non-Democrats (5.00 / 7) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:04:46 PM EST
    from Democratic primaries FOREVER. Yesterday, today and tomorrow.

    This is the DEMOCRATIC Party.

    Parent

    Well said (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:09:43 PM EST
    If you don't have the guts to join a party, make your own.  
    New Rules:

    1.  Membership cards for party members.
    2.  You vote only if you are a member.
    3.  Work for you party don't dabble.
    4.  Clear rules on elections ratified by members only, blogosphere gets no opinion.  

    Parent

    You want to do this retroactively?? (none / 0) (#65)
    by AF on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:19:33 PM EST
    This year?! Seriously?!

    Parent
    Wanted to (none / 0) (#78)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:59:48 PM EST
    Please do not try my patience today.

    I am tempted to shut down comments today.

    Parent

    Lots chattering. (none / 0) (#82)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:03:30 PM EST
    Don't you feel like you are slogging through quicksand in slow motion?

    Parent
    This is what you said (none / 0) (#87)
    by AF on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:08:00 PM EST
    "Here is an interesting twist though - should the popular vote of NON-Democrats count in the Democratic Convention?

    Can we get the total of actual Democrats voting, via Exit Polls?"

    Why would you need to use exit polls to determine the non-Democratic vote if you were simple advocating closed primaries?

    Parent

    Ideological Purity (none / 0) (#101)
    by solon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 06:13:15 PM EST
    Didn't this get us into Iraq in the first place...

    At this point, how do you differentiate yourself from Conservatives that demand ideological purity?

    Parent

    Jeralyn (none / 0) (#74)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:55:17 PM EST
    Agree completely.  Changing  the  rules  in  the middle of  the  game is  what  Obama   DOESN'T  want.  

    If  Donna  Brazille  wants  to change  what  has  always  been,  she  can   do  so in  the  NEXT  election.  

    Parent

    But (none / 0) (#79)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:00:48 PM EST
    Obamamama,   the superdelegates  have  ALWAYS  voted  however they wanted.   Don't  like  it? Change  the  rules  for  the  next  election.  The  horses  have  already left that  gate.  

    Parent
    It's not only Superdelegates, (none / 0) (#104)
    by marirebel on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 06:35:23 PM EST
    the unfair caucuses also disenfranchise voters.  Gail Collins has a good article on this in the NY Times today.  So, two things to change for the next go around.  Like you, I am not into changing the rules midway. MoveOn advocates superdelegate change now solely to advantage its preferred candidate.  Should the caucus rules be changed now to discount caucus results given their inheriant unfairness?  And, it's interesting that MoveOn, which claims 1.7 million members, endorsed Obama on only 197,444 votes. 83,084 voted for Hillary. Of course members were given less than 24 hours to vote.  I wonder who the other 1.4 million claimed members support?

    Parent
    It's funny to hear MoveOn (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by dk on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:58:40 PM EST
    talk about the will of the people, when their leadership endorsed Obama based on the votes of under 10% of their membership (MoveOn claimed to have 3.2 million members, and the email I, as a member, receved with the results of the endorsement vote showed that only around 300,000 votes came in).

    MoveOn.org (none / 0) (#99)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 05:01:29 PM EST
    is  not  an  attraction in  the  general  election.  

    McCain  has  already  pointed out that Obama   is  supported  by  that  "liberal  MoveOn.org  that   insulted  General  Petraeus."    

    With  moderates  and  Independents,  it  may sway  votes  his  way.

    Parent

    Why should SDs (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:02:07 PM EST
    support the will of the people? They're the senior members of the party, and the party doesn't exist to express the will of the people - its purpose is to advance its own success as a vehicle for gaining control of the levers of power. It's only once those party members become official government representatives that they have a responsibility to uphold the will of the people. The SDs should be looking out only for what will advance the success of the party organization as a whole, and thus use their own best judgment to vote for the person they think will be the most successful standard bearer for the party.

    A thrid view (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:03:30 PM EST
    A few months ago (none / 0) (#49)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:06:48 PM EST
    that would have meant Clinton. Now, who knows.

    Parent
    Now if only they would remember (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:07:50 PM EST
    their mission once in Congress.

    Parent
    The way (none / 0) (#107)
    by tek on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:44:02 PM EST
    things are going for Hillary with the Party, I would say we can just count on all those people switching over. Will of the People? LOL!
    This campaign is the will of the Democratic Party establishment. I'm really beginning to wonder if the D. C. Dems maybe want Obama because he is just more of the same and they've worked out a cozy little situation for themselves with lobbyists, etc. They sure haven't rocked any boats trying to stand up to Bush.

    Parent
    Democratic Accountibility (none / 0) (#1)
    by solon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:19:33 PM EST
    If you believe in Democracy, then you should at least argue that the Super Delegates who are accountable to the people should vote how their people voted: Democratic Representatives should vote according to how their district voted, unless it is tie, then they should vote how the state voted. Democratic Senators and democratic Governors should the vote of their state.

    This also means that Super Delegates without a constituency, such as Donna Brazile, former President Clinton, Former Vice-President Gore should not vote at all.

    Democracy requires accountability. Half of the Super Delegates do not have this, making their vote undemocratic.

    By state? (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:21:39 PM EST
    The House Super delegates, 232 of them, you could apply that criteria to. But the Senate, 50 of them, you can not.

    That leaves 500 of them. they vote by state I take it?

    Parent

    Senators and Governors... (none / 0) (#6)
    by solon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:31:24 PM EST
    Super Delegates who are Senators or Governors should vote by which candidate won the state, e.g. California, New York, etc. for Clinton, and Georgia and Illinois for Obama.

    This means that Super Delegates without a constituency should either not vote or vote for the winner of pledged delegates and super delegates with constituencies.

    The Super Delegates with no constituencies become very problematic in this equation.

    Parent

    Should either not vote? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:37:22 PM EST
    Umm, that seems odd. but let's look at part 2:

    vote for the winner of pledged delegates and super delegates with constituencies.
    >

    Aaahhhh. somehow I knew you would get there.

    I believe they should vote for the popular vote winner. That said, I ACCEPT they can vote for whomever they want, including Mike Gravel. the rules say so. do you agree?

    Parent

    Liberty of Conscience... (none / 0) (#30)
    by solon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:56:05 PM EST
    Of course the Super Delegates can vote their conscience. I don't think I have ever said they could not do this.

    Not voting is an option that they have. There are times it makes sense to abstain from voting, especially when the results may threaten the legitimacy of the process. This of course could occur of the Super Delegates without constituencies support either Obama or Clinton.

    My position is to find the way in which there will be the most transparency and legitimacy in terms of what matters: the delegates and super delegates.

    While your reliance on the popular vote works on an emotional level, there are too many inconsistencies from state to state to make it a legitimate argument. If each state decided to use the same method, it would be legitimate. However, since there are too many factors involved that alter the meaning of the popular vote, it is an ineffective argument.

    Parent

    Actually my proposal (none / 0) (#81)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:03:28 PM EST
    is much more acceptable and accurate than your reliance on delegate selection.

    Parent
    Democracry or Liberty (none / 0) (#102)
    by solon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 06:17:22 PM EST
    I think that you need to work on your consistency in this problem.

    If you want democratic accountability, then the Super Delegates need to follow the delegates.

    If you want liberty, then the Super Delegates need to follow their own conscience, regardless of the delegates, other super delegates, the popular vote, the way the political wind blow, etc... With liberty, then they should vote as they see fit and not "they should follow the popular vote," which acts as a constraint on their liberty.

    Decide which is more important: democracy or liberty. It seems that in this process, they conflict.

     

    Parent

    BTW (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:23:56 PM EST
    Absolutely the Super Delegates should be abolished. Caucuses should be abolished. Congressional apportionment for delegate selection should be abolished. Favoring rural districts should be abolished. Viability requirements should be abolished.

    I said all these things BEFORE the first primary or caucus. Where were you?

    But the rules are the rules, except when they are not.

    Parent

    This is how the super-delegate mess began (none / 0) (#5)
    by SandyK on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:31:21 PM EST
    by ditching the system.

    You really don't want to mess with the system in place, because there's nothing called future history, to show us if any changes will be like this super-delegate mess.

    And unlike now, the timing then could be m-u-c-h worse.

    I seen this talk with the electorial college. It's no good to change the system for short gain wins, when it can ruin them later.

    Don't get lost in the short gains. Think long term. This is a main problem with "progressives", they think for today, and don't want to think about consequences tomorrow. Fixing later is much, much, much more complicated.

    Parent

    democracy vs nomination (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Polkan on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:36:00 PM EST
    I think there is a huge difference between a general election and the nomination of a candidate for a party. We shouldn't treat them in the same way because they each have a completely different purpose and run in a different process. If we accept that a party is a political organization based on ideology and goals, then we have to also accept that it has every right to have a body with an overriding vote authority, so that the party's interests can be furthered and protected. I think the fact that non-registered party members are allowed to vote is what's so confusing - not because it's wrong, but because it makes the nomination look like a "mini" general election

    Parent
    Thanks for reminding me (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:38:17 PM EST
    And I have opposed OPEN primaries for many many many years.

    Parent
    agreed, but (none / 0) (#12)
    by Polkan on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:41:07 PM EST
    how else can you gauge the interest of swing voters in a candidate, other than in an open primary?

    Parent
    The purpose of a primary (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:47:02 PM EST
    is to choose OUR PARTY's nominee, not the Independents' nominee

    Do you think you really know now how Indies are going to vote in november? Nonsense.

    Parent

    actually we have a pretty good guage (none / 0) (#24)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:49:26 PM EST
    from the polling data. Obama wins indies.

    Parent
    Agianst Clinton (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:51:03 PM EST
    But against McCain?

    Polling is crap.

    By the same token we know that Clinton has swamped Obama among DEMOCRATS!

    Parent

    is this the same polling data (none / 0) (#28)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:51:57 PM EST
    that said Obama would win NH?

    Lookit, you can pick and choose polls to your liking.  They are no longer valid and I hate to tell you this, but people lie.

    Parent

    does anyone know (none / 0) (#31)
    by Polkan on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:58:14 PM EST
    the history of cauceses and open vs closed primaries? To me it also doesn't make much sense, but I'd like to know if there's an official DNC position or historical context for this

    Parent
    Closing the Door (none / 0) (#40)
    by solon on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:02:59 PM EST
    on Independents is a good way to determine how they will not vote.

    In an era when party affiliation is decreasing, Independents and moderates become the key to winning an election and gaining support for legislation. The Democrats have been doing a much better job of trying to involve independents in the primaries with the hope that the independents will support their candidate in the fall. By encouraging participation here, the Democrats attempt to secure it in the long run.

    Demanding ideological purity is an odd way to persuade people to vote for you.

    Parent

    risking deletion (none / 0) (#64)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:19:00 PM EST
    I always think of independents the same way I think of bisexuals--I mean, you either lean one way or another.

    I agree with BTD, though.  We are choosing a candidate for the democratic party--someone who best represents our ideals and our vision for where the country should be.  If you are an independent, then you should wait until the ge and choose which serves you best: the repub candidate or the dem one.  If you want a say early on, then you should switch parties.

    Parent

    How the state voted (none / 0) (#83)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:04:01 PM EST
    Too late.   John Kerry  and  Teddy Kennedy,  representing  Masschusetts  (Clinton won),  have   refused  to change  their  votes  from  Obama.   Won't  work.

    Parent
    I believe (none / 0) (#108)
    by tek on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:46:06 PM EST
    in democracy and I believe that Edward Kennedy and Rahm Emanuel had no right to attempt to deprive Bill Clinton of his Constitutional First Amendment rights in this campaign, but they did it anyway, told him he had to shut up, stay off the campaign trail, and STOP CRITICIZING OBAMA.

    You call that democracy? Barack Obama does.

    Parent

    At least MoveOn asked first... (none / 0) (#3)
    by katiebird on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:22:53 PM EST
    They turned that primary around too quickly, but they did ask (about supporting Obama).

    DFA didn't even make a pretense of asking though before they sent out their message yesterday.

    What surprises me is that I had NO idea that Democrats were such Firm Rule Followers.  

    Rank and File (none / 0) (#13)
    by SandyK on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:43:10 PM EST
    Dems are for the rules, as they know them, and use them to their advantage. The average voter, and by the looks of it here is all of us, never even looked at them until now.

    And the reactionary reaction is to call for changes and half a dozen other things when the house is on fire due to them.

    It's just another example why the majority of voters aren't party members -- they understand organizations have rules that favor their establishment (just like any corporation has rules to favor the board over their employees).

    The only good thing here is that the majority now sees one part of these rules, and how much they don't stack up to reality -- especially when they were never means tested before. The establishment wanted a way to have control so democracy won't get too out of whack (France in 1789 anyone?), and it's understandable. But the voters has to come to terms with CHECKED democracy.

    All in all I think it's good process, because if the far Left isn't controlled (as the far Right), we have an uglier mess on par to France in 1789.

    There's a method to the madness.

    Parent

    Didn't at all mean to imply that I'm not (none / 0) (#22)
    by katiebird on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:48:12 PM EST
    Didn't at all mean to imply that I'm not a rule follower.  I am -- that's the weirdest thing...

    Parent
    Didn't imply it (none / 0) (#69)
    by SandyK on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:30:54 PM EST
    just a little clarification.

    Parent
    Super Delegates (none / 0) (#11)
    by Joike on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:39:42 PM EST
    The Super Delegates are under no requirement that I am aware of to vote in any particular manner.

    I may think the concept of SDs is a bit elitist and a bit of an anachronism, but they exist.

    Given the rules, I don't see why an SD should feel required to vote a certain way.

    SDs by virtue of being either elected officials or party operatives have a vested interest in the party as a whole doing well so hopefully most would vote in what they believe to be the party's best interests though personal interests are bound to be involved.

    Let's say I'm a Congressman from Ohio and I prefer Clinton to Obama, but the voters in my district vote for Obama 60 to 40.  That might give me pause over whether to throw my delegate vote to Clinton, but it shouldn't stop me from supporting the candidate I think is the best choice.

    If SDs should have to vote based on votes in their state or district, then they are not really SDs, but merely delegates apportioned the way delegates normally are apportioned.

    I am in no way defending the existence of SDs, but they exist to give additional influence to party insiders and elected officials and they should be given the leeway to vote their conscience.

    Besides if SDs have some moral obligation to vote along the lines of their constituencies, it can get pretty blurry.

    What if Clinton win the state, but Obama wins my district.  Do I have to vote for Clinton or do I have to vote for Obama?

    What if Obama wins 51 to 49?  Can't I insert my own judgment since my constituents are evenly divided?

    What if Clinton wins 48 to 46 with 6% going to Mike Gravel (is he still running?)?  Do I get to use my judgement then?

    The idea of the nomination coming down to SDs might come across as unseemly since it evokes the idea of fat cat deals being made in smoke filled rooms.  The losing side is going to complain that the winner simply strong-armed or bought off enough SDs to win.

    Truth is, politics is often unseemly.  It doesn't have the niceities of a sporting event.  It involves cutting deals and bring pressure to bear to get stuff done.  It may not be pretty and it may not seem fair to the side that loses, but at this point how else do you decide what's "fair" when half the voters like one candidate and the other half like another?

    Let the elected officials and party insiders decide with whom they want to go to battle, and let's get it on with the GOP and win.

    The rules do not require it (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:45:30 PM EST
    But I hope they vote for the popular vote winner.  

    Parent
    Or wait for the Credentials Committee (none / 0) (#15)
    by katiebird on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:43:28 PM EST
    Or wait for the Credentials Committee to tell you?

    Parent
    Popular vote (none / 0) (#17)
    by mouth of the south on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:45:07 PM EST
    Do your numbers include caucus participants?  If not, then we should go by the pledged delegate winner.  You can't think it is democratic to exclude the delegates won in caucus states.  

    I can even compormise THIS point (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:48:50 PM EST
    Let the SDs from the caucus states vote for the winner of their district. How's that solve your concern?

     

    Parent

    I am convinced that public pressure will (none / 0) (#21)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:47:48 PM EST
    get to the superdelegates. Every single discussion I've seen on TV comes down on the "must vote the way the delegates did" side. According to these experts, if Obama is even slightly ahead, if the superdelegates vote for Clinton, they will be seen as backroom deal makers stealing the election from the people.

    I have pretty much accepted that Obama will be the nominee but I agree with BTD that it should be the popular vote that matters and he needs to win one of the remaining big states. I think the Clinton campaign made a terrible mistake giving up on some of these states she did so badly in. She has lost her popular vote lead and needs to win big now.

    The Popular vote is a powerful tool (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:49:36 PM EST
    if the Clintons know how to swing it.

    First though, TAKE MARK PENN OUT OF EVERY DISCUSSION!!!!!

    He is horrible.

    Parent

    Obama is winning both (none / 0) (#27)
    by jdj on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:51:05 PM EST
    poular vote and pledged delegates, which is unlikely to change.

    Parent
    Well, even if you ignore the delegates (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Teresa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 02:58:25 PM EST
    from Florida, it's pretty hard to discount the number of voters there who did nothing wrong and voted in record numbers. That still puts Obama ahead in popular vote (I think) but not by much.

    Parent
    If he loses TX, OH and PA (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:02:42 PM EST
    it is almost CERTAIN to change.

    Parent
    For now, yes (none / 0) (#95)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:53:47 PM EST
    But  that  won't  be  true  after  Texas, Ohio,  and  Pennsylvania.  

    Did you  hear   Clinton    has  been declared  the winner  of    the  New  Mexico   caucus?

    Parent

    The beat goes on (none / 0) (#36)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:00:07 PM EST
    "Silencing millions of voices "is working.  Already got two emails from Moveon drones.  Rules are rules, except when they are not in your candidates favor.  

    oh, nose! (none / 0) (#42)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:04:01 PM EST
    I forgot about our talking points drinking game!

    I think the polling data I cited up thread should be very sobering.  Florida is a delegate rich state, and obviously McCain is pulling more independents there.  Demographically, it's Clinton Country.  If you want to make an argument for electability, you need to be looking at these key states and parsing the electorate.

    It's sobering news.

    Parent

    Unsubscribe (none / 0) (#109)
    by tek on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:46:52 PM EST
    that will be the end of those drone e-mails.

    Parent
    Um... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Categorically Imperative on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:05:06 PM EST
    FWIW, if you are going to bash TPM, at least wait until it's warranted:

    For once I agree with Move On. Via TPM, which fails to note that Move On has endorsed Obama (poor journalism again from TPM) :

    The superdelegates are under lots of pressure right now to come out for one candidate or the other," reads the petition from MoveOn, which has endorsed Obama.


    Fixed AFTER the fact (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:07:47 PM EST
    Not there when I posted.

    Before you bash me, maybe you should think that I would not have written that if it was there in the first place.

    Parent

    That's what I assumed at first (none / 0) (#63)
    by Categorically Imperative on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:16:28 PM EST
    But the acknowledgement of MoveOn's endorsement of Obama is in the block quote that you posted, so it looks like it was there all along.  Unless you went back to change the block quote to reflect TPM's after-the-fact editing, in which case I don't understand why you left your original "bad journalism" comment in there.

    Parent
    You know what (none / 0) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:23:29 PM EST
    I must be wrong on this one.

    At any rate, I have to retract as my OWN evidence is against me.

    Parent

    It is (none / 0) (#50)
    by Wile ECoyote on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:07:29 PM EST
    interesting to note SD's can vote twice.  Once in their primary or caucus, then as SD.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:08:26 PM EST
    presumably Obama gets to vote twice. Different votes though,

    Parent
    what is moronic is they don't reaize that (none / 0) (#57)
    by athyrio on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:10:09 PM EST
    delegates are NOT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE but the popular vote is....no other way to see it....is this logical or hypocritical?

    Of course the Supers will 'vote their conscience.' (none / 0) (#60)
    by sweetthings on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:12:13 PM EST
    I'm not sure that's such good news for Hillary.

    I understand why the Clinton campaign feels the need to stress this angle; at this point, a victory via Supers is the best hope they have. But am I alone in thinking that 'free' Supers may not ultimately be in Hillary's best interest?

    As I see it, the Democrat's biggest problem, by far, is Florida and Michigan. I know BDT has tried to craft a perfect compromise, but in truth, there's only one perfect solution to that disaster, and that's for Florida and Michigan not to matter. That only happens if one candidate has a lead of at least 366 delegates over the other.

    Barring some unexpected development, it is very likely that Obama will go to the convention with a lead of 50-200 delegates. (assuming Clinton wins the states she has to) There are ~800 Supers. That's enough to either push Clinton over the top, (depending on what happens with FL and MI) or bury her so deep that FL and MI become irrelevant.

    Pretend you're a super. Do you?

    • Prop Hillary up, which will prompt a huge media firestorm and extensive review of you, the nomination process, and the Democratic National Party as a whole?
    • Toss Hillary under the bus, making the media happy and making an enormous pile of stink (in the form of FL and MI) go away at the same time?


    are you insane? (none / 0) (#67)
    by Kathy on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:24:16 PM EST
    How about:

    *  Vote for the most viable candidate.

    And if you think "tossing" Hillary under a bus is going to make FL and MI go away...well, it's patently obvious you're not capable of seeing anything clearly.  You couched language is so transparent.

    Parent

    People can rationalize almost anything... (none / 0) (#70)
    by sweetthings on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:33:03 PM EST
    Under the right circumstances. I doubt Supers are any different in that regard.

    FL and MI stop being nearly as much of an issue if one candidate gets a 400 delegate lead on the other. At that point, the DNC can seat them, or not, and it doesn't really matter one way or the other. I suspect making sure that happens is very high on the list of priorities for many party big-wigs, many of whom are also Supers. I also suspect that they wouldn't hesitate to throw either candidate under the bus if it helped minimize that mistake. That's just how politics works.

    Parent

    sweetthings (none / 0) (#92)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:43:59 PM EST
    Too late.  Obama  told  the voters  in Florida  he  would   support  their  reinstatement  at  the  convention.  

    If  he  reneges on  that   promise,  he  loses  Florida    in  the  general.  

    And  Democrats  don't  win  without  Florida.  

    You'd  best  focus  on  what's  best  for  the party,  and  not  just  what  works  for  your own  candidate.

    Parent

    I don't have a candidate. (none / 0) (#100)
    by sweetthings on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 05:02:09 PM EST
    I'll happily vote for the Democratic nominee in November regardless of who it is. (sadly, I live in a very red state, so it won't matter, but I'll still do it) I honestly don't get the heat flowing from both sides of the debate on this one. We have two great candidates in the primary. Yay us! That should be cause for celebration, not intraparty flamefests. Look at our poor conservative brethren...they've been forced into nominating a man that half their base can't stand! At the end of the day, we have it pretty good.

    But my comment is not about what Obama wants, or even what Hillary wants, but what the DNC (represented by the Supers) is likely to want. Personally, I suspect that burying the disaster that is FL and MI is higher up the priority list than promoting any certain candidate. (particularly when both are obviously so strong and capable in the GE)

    But I freely admit I could be wrong about that. Party insider I am not.

    Parent

    Florida and Michigan (none / 0) (#105)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 08:31:46 PM EST
    There  is  NO  WAY   the  DNC  will  snub    those  two  states;  they're  too  important  in the  general.  

    They  just haven't  figured  out HOW  to reinstate  them without  making    both sides   mad.    

    But   completely  leave  them out?  Not  gonna  happen.  

    Parent

    Right... (none / 0) (#110)
    by sweetthings on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 11:28:15 PM EST
    Which is exactly why the Supers have to bury one candidate or the other. They need to pile on so hard that FL and MI can be reinstated without it making any difference to the outcome.

    Which candidate gets tossed is still being determined. I suspect we'll get the answer on the 4th.

    Parent

    watch the insults (none / 0) (#94)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:47:53 PM EST
    this was uncalled for

    Parent
    Kathy (none / 0) (#97)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:57:34 PM EST
    has  more  insurance.    

    Parent
    ObamaMama (none / 0) (#96)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:56:46 PM EST
    Odd,   that  you would  call  a  21  point  Clinton  lead in  Ohio   and  "unspectacular  event."

    You must  be  full of    that  HOPE  stuff.  :)

    Parent

    sounds good but how likely? (none / 0) (#91)
    by Polkan on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:33:47 PM EST
    I think it depends on the arguments each campaign will make and how those arguments relate to the overall party goals as well as to the specifics of each candidate.

    The two scenarios you outlined only deal with the public relations disaster. The other issue, already noted here and hopefully more important for super delegates, is viablity.

    So, I think whichever way it goes, it's better to risk a short-term media disaster and solve it by forcing the losing candidate to rally behind the winner, than the entire election.

    And, frankly, if they decide solely based on the public relations outcome, then what does it say about our party elders.

    Parent

    Obama leads in the popular vote! (none / 0) (#72)
    by flaxter on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 03:49:57 PM EST
    According to Chris Bowers: "Obama now leads in all five counts that I am tracking." (2/13/08)

    Not for long (none / 0) (#98)
    by auntmo on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:58:50 PM EST
    Come  back  and  tell us  AFTER  Texas, Ohio,  and  Pennsylvania.

    Parent
    moveon.org--sellout (none / 0) (#90)
    by Me414 on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 04:24:28 PM EST
    Moveon.org wants the Super delegates to vote for Obama because that's who they decided to support. It has nothing to do with "the will of the people" but everything to do with the power that moveon thinks they own. I've worked for moveon before but would never do it again. I'm so sick of the Obama supporters whining about the super delegates. You never hear them complain about the caucus system of voting and this never came up until Hillary was leading in super delegates.

    In (none / 0) (#106)
    by tek on Thu Feb 14, 2008 at 09:36:05 PM EST
    other words, come out for Obama.