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It's Not about Palin

Jeralyn continues to beat the drum to blame the expected Republican landslide loss in this election on Sarah Palin. This is both wrong and wrongheaded.

First why it is wrong. The polls tell the tale. Too often people like to look at favorable and unfavorables as stand alone from the top line numbers. The reverse is true imo. Favorables follow the toplines. It is not the other way around. And the topline numbers simply disprove Jeralyn's thesis. On September 3, the night of Sarah Palin's acceptance speech, Obama led McCain by 5.8%. On September 11, McCain led by 2.5%. We all know what happened on September 15. On that day, McCain led by 2%. One week later, Obama had regained the lead. By the end of the month, Obama led by 5. By October 15, Obama led by 8. And very little has changed since then. More . . .

Sarah Palin changed the dynamic of the campaign in a positive way for McCain for 2 weeks. Then the economic meltdown happened. And McCain blew it. Sarah Palin did not blow it. John McCain did. In every appearance and in every debate. To be sure, Sarah Palin has had an uneven performance (and clearly hurts McCain in Florida.) But so did Joe Biden. But John McCain had the important terrible performance. In the campaign, two people specifically lost this election. George Bush and John McCain. But generally, Republican ideology lost this election. As Bill Clinton said at the Democratic convention, Republicans had all the keys for the most of the past 8 years and the results speak for themselves.

Which brings me to why Jeralyn's approach is wrongheaded from a Democratic progressive perspective. If this election is treated as a referendum on McCain's choice of Palin, then it is not going to be perceived as what it really was - a referendum on Republicanism. Sarah Palin is not why Democrats will win 8 Senate seats and 30 House seats. Sarah Palin is not why Obama may win Ohio, Virginia, Colorado, Iowa, New Mexico and Nevada (it may be why he wins Florida.) Republicanism is the main reason why.

With the pundits already beginning to attempt to minimize a Democratic mandate, to give them an easy out by blaming a Republican landslide loss on Palin is not prudent for Democrats and/or progressives. Let's make this a mandate election. Let's not let the pundits scapegoat this landslide loss for Republicanism on Sarah Palin.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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    Heh. (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:32:21 AM EST
    Sarah Palin did not blow it. John McCain did. In every appearance and in every debate. To be sure, Sarah Palin has had an uneven performance (and clearly hurts McCain in Florida.) But so did Joe Biden.

    To suggest that there is any kind of equivalence in the effect Biden and Palin are having on their tickets is absurd on its face.  Biden currently has the best numbers on the "prepared to be President" question (with Obama and McCain close behind) and Palin has the absolute worst.

    Yes, McCain blew it -- but part of the way in which he blew it was his choice of Palin.  She's the disasta from Alaska.  He also blew it by not leaving the Republican Party in 2000.  And by his statements on the economy.  But Palin counts.

    If this election is treated as a referendum on McCain's choice of Palin, then it is not going to be perceived as what it really was - a referendum on Republicanism. Sarah Palin is not why Democrats will win 8 Senate seats and 30 House seats.

    Well, we're talking a bit at cross purposes here.  I'm trying to figure out what public opinion actually is.  And you're trying to shape public opinion to give the Obama Administration a leg up (and possibly to help move them in the "right" direction).

    I tend to believe that this election is a rejection of the Bush Administration rather than a deeper rejection of the Republicans.  It remains for Obama to convert it, through solid governance and a deliberate campaign into a four year rejection of the basic tenets of Republicanism.

    However, even if you see this election as a considered rejection of Republican dogma there's no discrepancy between that and Palin's failings.  Palin represents the ascendant know-nothing branch of the Republican Party.  She says she's a pit bull with lipstick?  No -- she's an elephant with lipstick.  Her flaws are the flaws of Republicanism.  Her defeat is the defeat of Republicanism.

    In fact, it's better, if you want to make the "defeat of Republicanism" argument, to invoke Palin than McCain who, even if unfairly, maintains some of his original "independent" flavor.


    Different issues (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:47:15 AM EST
    Joe Biden has benefitted from the Obama Media Darling effect.

    On the campaign trail, he has been simply awful. The good news is no one has paid attention to him.

    Biden has moved zero votes. And that is a good thing.

    Parent

    I'm willing to entertain. . . (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:56:32 AM EST
    the idea that Biden has moved 0 votes (although I know that, at least anecdotally, to be false).  However, in the appearances I've seen or heard (the debate, plus radio excerpts from some speeches) he's been very good and at the very worst a net wash for Obama.  Since Palin has been a net negative for McCain, that makes Biden a much better choice.

    Yes, the croakers on Daily Kos get all freaked out every time something comes out of his mouth slightly wrong or -- even worse -- he transgresses the official line and says something nice about Clinton.  The only "gaffe" he's made with legs was the "testing" one.

    His biggest benefit to Obama has been to stand in contrast with Palin and to give form to the idea that Obama will hire competent, centrist, knowledgeable people while McCain is going to people his cabinet with true-believer know-nothings and unlicensed plumbers.

    Parent

    I've never seen Biden be good (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:01:06 AM EST
    ever. Then again I detest Biden the politician.

    Biden has been a net wash because of the OBAMA Media Darling effect.

    His "mark my words" moment was the worst gaffe I have ever seen from a VP since Dan Quayle. Palin had nothing to math that moment.

    I am discussing his campaign performance. His effect has been net wash. He helps no where with no one. He did no harm (for the reason discussed above). That is all you can say for him.

    Plain a net negative? Evidence? I do not quote unfavorables to me. That Obama voters hate Palin means nothing. She gained McCain votes. She lost votes that McCain was never going to get.

    Parent

    I have a disadvantage. . . (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:20:25 AM EST
    Then again I detest Biden the politician.

    here, since I'm basing my opinion only on the current campaign.  I never really followed him before.  As a politician, obviously he didn't do too well in either of his Presidential campaigns.  But campaigning for VP is different than campaigning for President, and I think he's done well.

    His "mark my words" moment was the worst gaffe I have ever seen from a VP since Dan Quayle. Palin had nothing to math that moment.

    That's absurd.  Katie Couric?  "I can see Russia from my house"?  You're kidding me, right?

    He helps no where with no one.

    I think you're wrong.  I'll bet dollars to donuts that any poll of the question "Does the VP candidate make you more or less likely to vote for the ticket" would show Palin tens of points ahead of Biden in the "less likely" category.

    You and I may find it hard to understand, but there are lots of Democratic voters subject to the "there are things you don't know about Obama, he's not a regular American" subtext of the Republican campaign.  Biden -- a centrist, older, knowledgeable regular Joe -- helped bring some percentage of those people home to Obama.

    On the whole I agree that decisions are made based on the top of the ticket, the VP selection helps define what kind of hiring choices the Presidential candidate will make and not much else.  However, a spectacularly bad choice like Palin is different (notwithstanding that her most important negative for McCain was, yes, to cast his judgment in doubt).  And in a case where people have doubts -- undeserved, nasty, unspoken -- about the top of the ticket, a mainstream, solid VP choice can help assuage them.

    Yes, it makes me sad when I see Obama and Clinton campaigning together to think about what might have been.  But I'm not going to take that out on Joe Biden.  He's been a trooper.

    Parent

    Did Palin say (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:24:23 AM EST
    she could see Russia from her house? Actually no. That was Tina Fey.

    Was it a silly answer about neighboring Russia giving her FP experience? Sure. And with the Media set to jump, it was made to be the gaffe of all time. It was not.

    Mark my words was easily and far and away the worst gaffe ever.

    Please give me the Palin quote that you think were the worst gaffes ever.

    You, all of you, confuse Obama's Media Darling status (which determined how Biden would be covered and Palin to a lesser extent) with the candidate's actual performance on the campaign. Biden made so many gaffes it is not funny.

    It actually ranks among the worst campaigning performances of all time.

    Parent

    I remind you. . . (none / 0) (#32)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:00:01 AM EST
    that large parts of Tina Fey's routines have been verbatim recitation of Palin's campaign appearances.  What she said was "you can see Russia from my state".  She might as well have said "from my house".  It was idiotic.  Was that one statement the gaffe of all time?  Maybe not, but it was pretty high up on the list of all time political stupid things to say.  Combined with all the other things she said in the same interview, yes, definitely -- it was the meta-gaffe of all time.

    Among Palin's gaffes -- not knowing the name of single Supreme Court decision, trying to answer a question about the Bush Doctrine when she had no idea that such a thing existed, pro-America and anti-America states, not understanding how Freddie / Fannie work, publicly supporting Obama's position on Pakistan instead of McCain's,  calling the ticket the Palin / McCain Administration, publicly disagreeing with campaign strategy on Michigan, the shopping spree, getting names of cities and states where she's appearing wrong.

    What other gaffes do you feel Biden has made?  I don't count things like asking the fellow in the wheel chair to "stand up" -- that was dumb, but not politically damaging.  And I don't count his gracious words about Clinton.  They were simply gracious.

    Biden has turned in a solid vice Presidential campaign.  Palin has been a walking, talking disaster.

    Parent

    Not knowing or not answering (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:05:55 AM EST
    Excuse me, on Supreme Court decisions, Joe Biden is a champ at gaffes.

    The lenses here are clouded.

    But leave that aside - McCain is getting 93% of Republicans. Palin helped there.

    Indies are splitting.

    Obama is winning because most of America now says it is Dems. Plain had nothing to do with it.

    I dare say Palin could easily be seen a a net plus in terms of VOTES for McCain, Biden delivered nothing for Obama. Nothing. Which was fine. Do no harm - thanks to the Media.

    Parent

    Surely I don't have to explain. . . (none / 0) (#43)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:35:36 AM EST
    But leave that aside - McCain is getting 93% of Republicans. Palin helped there.

    to you (the way I do on Daily Kos) how the party ID numbers work in polls.  It's not the percentage of Republicans that McCain will get, it's the (decreased) percentage of people who will ID themselves as Republicans on election day that tells the story.

    Plain had nothing to do with it.

    Righty-ho.  I salute your courage in adopting a position that I believe no other political observer in the United States outside of the Palin 2012 club has.

    Parent

    Indeed (none / 0) (#79)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:01:35 PM EST
    And you explain your own fallacy. Has GOP voter ID decreased since Palin was named VP? No. The opposite in fact.

    Parent
    She'll have the same. . . (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:56:19 AM EST
    successful political career that the last similar Republican doofus (Dan Quayle) had.

    She's only a disaster to those who wanted her to be one -- who were predestined to see her that way in part because of the way that she looks and because of stereotypical gender-based assumptions, among other things.

    Nonsense.  The polls show otherwise.  She started with a majority favorable impression and, with each appearance, has lost more and more support.  She is the classic example (and a rare one, in politics) of the reality catching up with the image.  

    What you say is the precise opposite of the truth -- she's only a non-disaster to those people who refuse to see her for what she is (a doofus) rather than as a symbol representing all female politicians.  She's a disgrace to politics, and a disgrace to thoughtful, knowledgeable, well-educated women of both parties, including even women on the far right who can, at least, place their beliefs into the context of the real world.

    The fact that you actually defend her "I can see Russia from my state" answer, and suggest that she deliberately botched the Bush Doctrine question indicate that there's literally nothing this candidate could say that would dissuade you from believing she's the reincarnation of JFK.

    Parent

    Isn't there a huge gap between (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:02:33 AM EST
    being a "doofus" and being the "reincarnation of JFK"?  I live a half hour drive from the Mexican/U.S. border.  Can't see Mexico from my house.  But, I'm certainly better informed about Mexico and issues important to residents of Mexico and issues important to residents of the U.S. involving Mexico than I was when I lived in the midwest.

    Whereas we excoriate Joe Biden for straying off topic, we do the same to Sarah Palin for being a "puppet."  

    I, for one, will be very glad to stop reading and hearing at every turn about Sarah Palin.  

    Parent

    Whether you get your wish. . . (none / 0) (#61)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:10:59 AM EST
    I, for one, will be very glad to stop reading and hearing at every turn about Sarah Palin.  

    Will depend largely on Palin herself.

    The Palin supporter upthread believes she will emerge as the respected leader of the Republican Party and be around for at least another four years.

    Parent

    Unless she "teleworks" f (none / 0) (#63)
    by oculus on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:13:54 AM EST
    from the East coast or resigns as Alaska Governor, I don't see her getting much media attention. after the election.  Do you anticipate a major media camp out in Alaska?  

    Parent
    I think she's toast. (none / 0) (#67)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:23:33 AM EST
    I think much of the Republican instrumentality already dislikes her intensely, and the whole party (all parties, actually) dislike a loser.  I think she'll go back to Alaska, govern (with popular support) there, and make a run in 2012 or 2016 in which she's eliminated early without attracting that much attention -- kind of like Huckabee this year.

    But if she doesn't want to go quietly into that six-month-long night and she doesn't get blacklisted at Fox for failure she could be a continuing presence in the right-o-sphere if she wanted to be.

    Parent

    No. (none / 0) (#86)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:23:45 PM EST
    Clearly, you want to dismiss my point of view by painting me as a Republican or as someone who sees only gender.

    You painted yourself that way with your arguments about why Palin's dimwitted statements about being able to see Russia from Alaska were somehow valid political arguments.

    They're not.  She's a doofus.

    I was a Clinton supporter in the primaries because I thought she was the best qualified candidate to be President, and would run the country generally along the lines I think it should be run.

    Palin is the exact opposite of Clinton.  Clinton is knowledgeable, Palin is ignorant.  Clinton is experienced, Palin is a novice.  Clinton is well spoken, Palin is gaffe prone.  Clinton is pragmatic, Palin is an ideologue.

    Palin does not bear defending.  She has only one thing in common with Clinton, and if that commonality is the reason you were voting for Clinton it was a bad one.

    If you can defend Palin the you are, by definition, a Palin supporter.

    Parent

    I'm sorry, Larry, but you are (none / 0) (#89)
    by dk on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:36:19 PM EST
    changing the subject here.  The issue is not about comparing Clinton and Palin.  The issue is comparing the treatment that Clinton and Palin have received from Obama's base and the mainstream media.  And there, I think it is undeniable that both were held to double standards because of their gender.  To deny the application of sexist double standards with respect to the treatment of both women is simply to deny reality, as far as I'm concerned.

    Parent
    Clinton was unquestionably. . . (none / 0) (#92)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:44:31 PM EST
    attacked because of her gender -- or at least attacked using her gender as a weapon.

    Most of the "attacks" on Palin (which generally consist of reporting her own words, in context) have nothing to do with gender.  They have to do with her ignorance and inability to speak knowledgeably about national or world events.

    Sexist attacks are sexist.  Non-sexist attacks (especially when they are only journalism) are not.

    Palin is getting the same treatment Quayle got, and deservedly so.

    Parent

    Oh, so I guess you can (none / 0) (#93)
    by dk on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    point me to the p*rn movie that was made starring a Dan Quayle lookalike?  

    I don't agree with pretty much anything that Sarah Palin says, and I think that she, like Obama, is certainly too inexperienced and light on knowledge of policy in my mind to be President, but to say that she hasn't been subjected to a whole host of sexist double standards is just unbelieveable.

    Parent

    For contorted, trumped up, and ludicrous. . . (none / 0) (#91)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:41:33 PM EST
    see your support of Palin's "Russia from my state" argument above.  That was a ludicrous, indefensible statement.  It deserves to be ridiculed.

    Parent
    What did Quayle have going for him (none / 0) (#81)
    by rilkefan on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:15:26 PM EST
    personally?  Palin has a lot of upside (esp. if she spends some serious time learning about the world).

    Parent
    BTW (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:50:26 AM EST
    I said absent Clinton, Biden was his best choice. But the fact is Biden has really sucked in his campaigning, Worse than I could have imagined.

    You are confusing the campaigning with the effect.

    Why the hell do you think I suggested Biden?

    Parent

    The VP debate (5.00 / 0) (#29)
    by CST on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:54:17 AM EST
    Biden absolutely killed.

    And a lot of people were watching.

    People don't watch him stump on the trail, but I think he won a lot of votes that day.

    Parent

    Killed? (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:03:17 AM EST
    He was comatose. Which was exactly what he needed to do.

    Puhleeaze.

    Parent

    Your expectations are too high (none / 0) (#37)
    by CST on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:11:03 AM EST
    It was "policy" vs. "talking points" on stage next to each other for the whole world to see.

    He didn't gaffe, he didn't insult, and he called the Repubs out on their bull.

    I would call that killing.  He didn't send a "tingle up my leg" but he got the job done.

    The "killing" to me was how he dissembled the talking points and pointed out the hypocracy behind the Republican platform in very plain speak.

    Maybe my expectations are just too low...

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:13:27 AM EST
    you are singular. Biden put people to sleep, which was his job - that is not killing.

    Parent
    This will be an historic election... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Exeter on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:10:20 AM EST
    Not b/c a woman or African American were put in the oval office, but because it marks the first time a vice presidential candidate cost the top of the ticket the election... or at least its the first time its been framed that way.

     

    Parent

    Mark my words was worst since Quayle . . . (none / 0) (#13)
    by AF on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:07:17 AM EST
    . . . except for Palin's Couric interview, which was the worst EVER, by far.

    Parent
    Which quotes from Plain (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:25:11 AM EST
    in the Couric interview would you point to? I am curious which one you think was worse than "mark my words."

    Parent
    Three examples (none / 0) (#22)
    by AF on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:40:34 AM EST
    Couric: I'm just going to ask you one more time - not to belabor the point. Specific examples in [McCain's] 26 years of pushing for more regulation.

    Palin: I'll try to find you some and I'll bring them to you.

    Couric: You've cited Alaska's proximity to Russia as part of your foreign policy experience. What did you mean by that?

    Sarah Palin: That Alaska has a very narrow maritime border between a foreign country, Russia, and, on our other side, the land-boundary that we have with Canada. . . .

    Couric: Well, explain to me why that enhances your foreign-policy credentials.

    Palin: Well, it certainly does, because our, our next-door neighbors are foreign countries, there in the state that I am the executive of.  

    COURIC: Why isn't it better, Governor Palin, to spend $700 billion helping middle-class families struggling with health care, housing, gas and groceries? ... Instead of helping these big financial institutions that played a role in creating this mess?

    PALIN: Ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health care reform that is needed to help shore up the economy- Oh, it's got to be about job creation too. So health care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions.



    Parent
    Um (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:48:46 AM EST
    That's the best you could find? Frankly, that is as innocuous as hell, UNLESS the Media is out to get you.

    Compared to this?

    "Mark my words. It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy. The world is looking. We're about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old senator president of the United States of America." he told a fundraising crowd in the Pacific Northwest on Sunday. "Remember I said it standing here if you don't remember anything else I said. Watch, we're gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy."

    Excuse me, Biden is the easy winner. He was awful in this campaign.

    Parent

    You're entitled to your opinion (none / 0) (#56)
    by AF on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:02:19 AM EST
    Which you have boldly maintained since Palin's selection.

    But I would like to know what evidence it would have taken to convince you that you were wrong.

    On September 4, with McCain up in the polls and Palin's popularity skyrocketing, I asked you:

    I think it is good for the campaign that the media and bloggers have exposed the Palin pick for what it appears to be: a cynical, impulsive, and irresponsible choice that reflects badly on McCain.

    However, if future events prove me wrong -- ie, if Obama loses or barely squeaks by, underperforming among women, while Palin's approval ratings soar -- I will admit that I was wrong.  Are there any future events that will lead you believe you are wrong?

    Apparently Obama's comfortable lead, Palin's low approval ratings, and the testimony of independent Republicans like Colin Powell haven't been good enough.

    Parent

    Actual evidence (none / 0) (#66)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:18:27 AM EST
    Which none of you have.

    But what I find fascinating is that all of you think this approach is actually good for a progressive agenda.

    To hear you folks, McCain would have won but for Palin. What kind of mandate does that give us?

    Parent

    Oh please. (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:37:56 AM EST
    First off, I've been predicting a McCain loss since it became clear who the candidates would be.  There's no logical flaw in saying McCain has hurt McCain, Bush has hurt McCain, the economy has hurt McCain, and Palin has hurt McCain.  They're all true and they're all interconnected (McCain has hurt McCain because of his poor judgment, as evidenced, among other things, by his choice of Palin; Bush has hurt McCain and McCain has compounded that problem by selecting another know-nothing Republican governor).

    On the issue of mandate, I salute you for trying to create a narrative that might be helpful to the Democrats.   That does not mean, however, that folks whose main interest is trying to figure out what's real, rather than what's desireable deserve the kind of scorn that you heap on them (us).  Those are separate endeavors.  They both have value.

    As to actual evidence -- Palin has been roundly criticized from the left and from the right as a terrible choice for Vice President and as an indication McCain's incredibly poor judgment.  Her poll numbers have fallen, and McCain's numbers have tracked hers.  She has been cited as a primary reason for a number of prominent Republicans to endorse Obama.  She has literally become the laughing stock of the 2008 campaign -- with the assistance of the media, yes, but rooted in her own inability to project a serious image.

    You already have an uphill battle on the mandate thing since, as I've said before, Obama's campaign has been organized as much around centrist Republican principles as around left leaning ones.  In my opinion, your mandate argument would be strengthened by arguing that the rejection of Sarah Palin represents a rejection of Republican know-nothing, religious right politics.  Trying to pretend she hasn't hurt the McCain campaign actually harms your argument.

    Parent

    Sarah Palin's performance on the campaign trail (none / 0) (#68)
    by AF on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:25:22 AM EST
    Perfectly embodies the ignorance, intolerance, and jingoism that have characterized the Republican party under George W. Bush.

    Before he turned his campaign over to Steve Schmidt and selected Palin, John McCain did not fully embody that aspect of the Republican party.

    To say that Palin was a significant factor in McCain's defeat -- not the only factor, obviously -- is to say that the public has utterly rejected what the Republican party has come to stand for.

    Parent

    Absurd (none / 0) (#73)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:46:08 AM EST
    What Palin stands for is the least of anyone's thoughts here.

    Parent
    What is it then? (none / 0) (#80)
    by AF on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:03:53 PM EST
    Sexism? Is that true of Jeralyn as well?

    Parent
    I do not know (none / 0) (#82)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:16:00 PM EST
    What do you think it is? Because if folks talk about Palin's positions, I would pleased as punch.

    Show me the posts. Show me the comments.

    Parent

    Maybe the evidence (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:28:07 AM EST
    is that you're hearing from some of the folks who possibly would have voted for McCain but for Palin.

    It's not like there wasn't alot of fairly radical ambivalence toward Obama around these parts up until fairly recently.

    Parent

    The Couric interview was inside baseball (none / 0) (#39)
    by Exeter on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:13:40 AM EST
    for the most part. It certainly did not have the water cooler / pop culture staying power of Dan Quayle spelling potato with an "e."

    Parent
    Nah, to the contrary. (none / 0) (#41)
    by brodie on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:30:57 AM EST
    The Couric interview, widely viewed and discussed, showed the public repeatedly that she really wasn't ready for prime time on just about anything to do with substance.

    Biden, by contrast, made no substantive gaffe but one which was clearly politically stupid -- i.e, the sort of inside baseball stuff which plenty of pundits will rehash in terms of speculating about the horserace but which most voters care little about in making their final decision.

    The experienced and well-known Biden, who'd already passed and exceeded the basic threshold questions voters ask about qualifications for the job and who also had a track record for making colorful misstatements, was bound to suffer less for his gaffe (except for being put on a tighter leash by the Obama camp) than the relatively unknown and inexperienced Palin who was still getting a first-look from most voters and who didn't have the luxury of making gaffes, or coming off looking ignorant and unprepared, because she'd yet to make it over the CiC threshold hurdle.

    Parent

    Right (none / 0) (#53)
    by AF on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:55:41 AM EST
    The Palin interview never made it to pop culture.  It was never on Saturday night live or anything like that.  

    Parent
    The exact equivalent. . . (none / 0) (#55)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:59:15 AM EST
    of Quayle's not being able to spell potato -- worse, actually, when you consider that a potential President is not likely to be involved in a major international crisis that centers around a spelling bee.

    Parent
    I know of one vote she cost McCain, BTD... (none / 0) (#19)
    by easilydistracted on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:33:15 AM EST
    This morning I spoke with a former co-worker, a purported "independent" now living in the Milwaukee area. He had been leaning McCain yet furious over Palin. He early voted this past week, and according to him, he actually wrote in a ticket and voted accordingly -- McCain/Leiberman. He explained to me that he just couldn't bring himself to support Palin on the ticket. His write-in won't count and represents at least one vote that Palen cost McCain.        

    Parent
    Something more than (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:39:14 AM EST
    anecdotes.

    Parent
    Sen. Biden did his job, effectively (none / 0) (#26)
    by wurman on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:51:33 AM EST
    The alleged gaffe about Sen. Obama being "tested" was actually a brilliant maneuver & Biden delivered it perfectly.

    Assoc. Press had a story in the can & on-line about how Bu$hInc tasked the Joint Chiefs to generate scenarios for various types of "tests" for the next president--within the first 6 months.  The AP story quoted Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the JCS, about the Pentagon strategic analyses.

    Biden pre-empted that story from becoming a McCain & GOP talking point. Here's Technorati: Pentagon Panel: Biden Was Right, Prep for 'Crisis.'

    From the DallasNews Oct 26, they quote the Washington Post:

    "I think the enemy could well take advantage" of the transfer of power in Washington, said Adm. Michael Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He launched preparations for the transition months ago and will brief the president-elect, the defense secretary nominee and other incoming officials on crisis management and how to run the military.

    The "village" pundits perceived this as a mistake by Sen. Biden, however it was a careful pre-emption of a potential problem.  Biden's comments on Oct. 20 deflected the focus.  Instead, the historical facts about "tests" of new presidents dominated that news cycle.  It was not focused on Sen. Obama & became a generic news item.

    InsideDefense on Oct 24 reported an Oct. 23 briefing that might have been developed as a story about how Sen. Obama was not ready to command. Biden's comments in Seattle put a silver stake in the heart of this potential problem.  McCain tried to get some advantage out of this, but the story never developed any traction.

    Parent

    Now we have seen every thing (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:07:49 AM EST
    If that was not a gaffe, then there is no such thing as a gaffe.

    Hell Obama disavowed it and Biden was hidden for a week after that.

    Parent

    Biden is not great on policy (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:50:46 AM EST
    I personally believe Obama will not listen to him much and  I am quite happy about that.

    Parent
    You didn't read the sources (none / 0) (#59)
    by wurman on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:07:12 AM EST
    and you've not followed the story as it developed.

    I don't like HuffPost, but this Melber piece pretty well covers the so-called "gaffe."  Sen. Obama did not disavow Biden's comments.  Here's the exact quotation:

    Look, as I said before, you know, I think that Joe sometimes engages in rhetorical flourishes -- but I think that his core point was that the next administration is going to be tested regardless of who it is, because of the fact that we have -- the next administration is going to be inheriting a whole host of really big problems, and so the president is going to be tested, and the question is, will the next president meet that test by moving America in a new direction, by sending a clear signal to the rest of the world that we are no longer about bluster and unilateralism and ideology, but we're about creating partnerships around the world to solve practical problems. That's going to be the best way to meet that test, and I have confidence that we will be able to do so.

    Adm. Mullen & his US Navy cronies attempted to generate a "set-up" for their old pal Capt. John S. McCain (USN, Ret) to run a blitz on Sen. Obama's lack of international crisis credibility.  The Assoc. Press was set to make that story & was totally unaware that Sen. Obama had schedule his "nervous" meeting weeks in advance.

    Biden sunk that boatload of krap.

    Biden was not removed from the campaign trail for a week. He spoke Oct 20 in Seattle WA & brought up the "test".  Oct 21 he did a sort of repeat in Pueblo CO.  Oct 22 Biden spoke in Colorado Springs.  Oct 23 he was in Raleigh NC.  Oct 24 he was in WV, especially Charleston.  Suffolk VA was Biden's Oct 25 main stop.  Oct 26 was Philadelphia with Sarbanes.  And Oct 27 was Greenville NC.

    You're off your game here Big Tent.  All of this stuff is regular news fodder & easily noticed.

    Parent

    Ari Melber? Huff PO? (none / 0) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:15:54 AM EST
    Sheesh. I followed the story and the day I use HuffPo as my sourcing is the day you should stop reading me.

    Biden did not talk to the MEDIA for a week after. Of coursde he did not cancel campaign events.

    You really are blind if you believe what you are writing.

    Parent

    Biden hasn't spoken to the media (none / 0) (#74)
    by wurman on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:56:12 AM EST
    for over 2 months, so he certainly wasn't doing anything different after the Oct 20 "test" comment.  You wrote Biden "was hidden for a week after that." He wasn't.

    Melber's blurb is a straight, concise recital of the facts, so it's quickly useful & easy to read.  And he precisely destroys the Assoc. Press effort to potray Obama as unprepared.  Your despising the messenger doesn't make the message untrue, whether it's in HuffPo or WaPo--each of which can be lame.

    Your hatred for Biden has clouded your analytical skills.

    Parent

    Absurd (none / 0) (#77)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:58:39 AM EST
    Just absurd. Are you NOT following the story? Biden's big tiff with the Orlando news anchor who asked him the stupidest question of all time?

    Do I have to find a Huff Po story for you to acknowledge its existence? OR is it just Ari Melber you read?

    Parent

    Shifting definitions--press talks & interviews (none / 0) (#84)
    by wurman on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:17:16 PM EST
    ABC News' Matthew Jaffe reports:  
    Earlier this week, Republicans claimed that Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., had been "muzzled" by the Democratic campaign, noting that he had not held a full-fledged press availability with traveling reporters since a Sept. 7 flight to Montana. But Friday night, in a deserted Ohio eatery on Halloween, the Democratic vice-presidential nominee once again fielded questions from his press corps, refuting any accusations that he had been "muzzled."

    Is ABC acceptable?

    Same story on NatlRev online:

    Asked dozens of times when Biden would take formally questions from the national reporters who have been following him, Wade said Biden instead favors one-on-one interviews and would hold a press availability "when we have some news to make."


    Parent
    Time frame is everything (none / 0) (#100)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 02:02:24 PM EST
    I disagree strongly (none / 0) (#102)
    by Jade Jordan on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 03:47:27 PM EST
    I have spoken to several people who have been to Biden events and they loved him.  He solidified their support for Obama (phonebanking for Barack).

    They saw him as a lively vibrant older gentleman who makes verbal mistakes (at that age we can all hope our mistakes are so small).  He comes off as honest, intelligent, engaged, and truly excited about being VP.

    Every body doesn't practice gotcha politics.  They see through his errors to what he is trying to say.  I haven't received a negative response on Biden.

    When I call Repubs Palin is the number one reason they give for not supporting McCain.  They do not want her to be President and they think McCain is on his last leg.

    Parent

    Can't separate Palin out (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Mike H on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:42:18 AM EST
    I think, honestly, that BTD and Jeralyn are trying to separate things that can't be separate.

    It isn't JUST about Palin, but Palin is indeed part of it, for a lot of Americans.  McCain's selection of Palin was another brick in the wall.  Or another straw on the camel's back.

    And that pick was about kowtowing to the base, those who LOVE Bush and think he did a fine job.

    Repudiate her and you ARE repudiating the Republicanism of the last 8-12 years.

    It's all connected, folks.

    Like it or not Sarah Palin did more (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:49:12 AM EST
    for John McCain than anyone else could have or would have.  It wasn't a salvageable situation. Look at what the Republican party has brought us all to?  No WMD's, No Osama, No regulation, No retirement savings left to us now from the same guys who wanted to privatize Social Security.  The Republican party had us fighting each other in the streets about stupid stuff, like if we didn't give Bush his billions and billions and billions to spend in Iraq that our soldiers would be sitting ducks unable to protect themselves halfway around the world in the war on terror.  And while we fought about and lost ourselves in such silliness we didn't even know that the Wall Street CEO's were completely looting us and we didn't even have the money to argue about sending to Iraq.  We sent all that money to "reconstruct" Iraq while New Orleans has remained our very own city of squalor and destruction and now there is no money left while our troops are still halfway around the world.  We haven't even got the GOA report yet on what it is going to cost us to repair and replace all of our military equipment that has been used in the Iraq War in order to return our military to a state of readiness.  Wait until you get that bill.......that one is going to BLOW YOUR FRICKEN MIND!  If people don't stop trying to say that Palin lost this election for McCain I'm going to have to start getting stoned or something.  And I doubt that Sarah Palin is going away either.  She is what the Republican Party likes.  She'll morph into something even more electable and we will likely see her again as the Republican party attempts to rebuild from their very own ground zero.

    Meanwhile, the Iraqi government (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by oculus on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:21:46 AM EST
    is trying to decide how to spend its surplus.

    Parent
    Big Tent's "pre-mortem" may be premature (5.00 / 0) (#8)
    by wurman on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:53:43 AM EST
    Cliché: 'success has many fathers, failure but one.'  It seems unlikely to me that any single factor of the incredibly incompetent McCain campaign could or should or will be singled out after the election.  Exit polls & statistical analyses of actual votes will help determine if the Palin factor or the fundamentals-are-sound factor or the Joe-the-Plumber factor, etc., was the most telling failure.

    Somerby will have his work cut out as the "village" blathers on about which McCain error was the worst part of his train wreck, more accurately, his plane crash.

    I'm in a long-ago agreement with Gen. Wes Clark.  It seems to me that John McCain may be somewhat capable of flying his own attack aircraft, but absolutely incapable of leading a flight or commanding a squadron or controlling a long, strategic political campaign.  It appears as if his candidacy did crash & burn on several key factors &, like the GOP brand of "w" Bu$h, Sen. McCain got everything wrong  Not one factor turned out "right," except the move toward the nutzy fringe of his political party.

    Sayonara Sen. Maverick.

    Just to be contrary, but commanding (none / 0) (#12)
    by tigercourse on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:03:32 AM EST
    a military unit (back in the 80's) was likely the last thing he did competently.

    Parent
    Yes, McCain did "turn around" a training (none / 0) (#31)
    by wurman on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:57:04 AM EST
    squadron at NAS Jacksonville.

    Parent
    In my own polling sample, (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Radiowalla on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:55:24 AM EST
    where n=1, the vote for Obama was entirely precipitated by the selection of Sarah Palin.

    Lefty blogs just want to blame Palin (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by Exeter on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:52:50 AM EST
    so that it fits into their fantasy that lefty blogs wrested Obama from the jaws of defeat by their relentless attacks on Palin.  

    The great thing is that no matter (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by ThatOneVoter on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:25:54 AM EST
    what anyone says before the election, Democrats are free to portray a strong victory tomorrow as a rejection of Reagan's philosophies. I think Obama will do that, actually.

    BTD gave the right reason regarding (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by cal1942 on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:36:57 AM EST
    the whole pointless Palin debate:
    With the pundits already beginning to attempt to minimize a Democratic mandate, to give them an easy out by blaming a Republican landslide loss on Palin is not prudent for Democrats and/or progressives. Let's make this a mandate election. Let's not let the pundits scapegoat this landslide loss for Republicanism on Sarah Palin.

    That paragraph tells the whole story.

    What may seem a harmless debate about factors in the outcome of the election is yet another distraction from the real issues.

    Don't let the Palin choice become the biggest issue in this election.  First, it's simply not the biggest issue and second; promoting that narrative lets Republicans off the hook.

    Republicans and the public at large need to know that the GOP lost this election because of Republican ideology.  Don't give them an out. Don't let them replace Borked with Palined.

    Republicans still promote the myth that Ross Perot cost GHW Bush the '92 election in spite of every bit of research demonstrating that Perot took evenly from Clinton and Bush.

    Selling the Palin story lets Republicans off the hook.

    There are other problems with PDS (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Manuel on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:51:19 AM EST
    It excuses incompetent media coverage (e.g. coverage of Palin's and Biden's answer about VP role).  Democrats won't have any legs to stand on when the media turns.

    It gives cover to "moderate" Republicans.  McCain and the Republican economic philosophy are not acceptable no matter who McCain picked.  Now the "moderate" Republicans will claim that the election was a rejection of Palin and not a rejection of balanced budgets and smaller government.

    Familiar... (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by huzzlewhat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:13:36 AM EST
    It occurs to me that I've heard "It's all her fault if he loses" before.

    Both parties have a scapegoat lined up and waiting for the election returns -- Clinton will avoid being scapegoated because circumstances have ensured that such scapegoating won't be necessary.

    Two vastly different women, of different stature and experience and history, and yet they both play the same role when it comes to predictive analysis. Is it just coincidence that they're both women? Or is this the "mommy effect" in practice?

    I think BTD is right -- it's the economy that decided this election, and the referendum is on the parties. And yet, somehow, common knowledge would have it that a loss for either party is the fault of one particular women.  

    I can't wait for this election to be over.

    Notice, too, that you don't see (none / 0) (#94)
    by oldpro on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 01:07:27 PM EST
    Hillary attacking Palin.  Or Bill or even Joe Biden, for that matter.  If beating up on Palin were a good idea, they'd be doing it.

    Yup.  It's still "the economy, stupid!"

    And the bursting bubble came just in time for Obama and the Democrats, across the board.

    Sarah Palin was probably McCain's best chance to win...not because she is female but because she could nail down and excite the base for McCain who could not do it himself and raise a pile of money in a hurry...both of which she did to give the R ticket a chance.

    Unfortunately for McCain, the market intervened and McCain has turned into Willie Loman...a victim of the times, his own bad choices and inability to 'make the sale.'

    Wonder if a movie will follow?

    Parent

    Economy + Palin = Republican Disaster (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by santarita on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:41:07 AM EST
    If the economy hadn't tanked so dramatically, the Palin choice might have been palatable to many voters.  But the drama of the meltdown and her incapacity to express herself in other than talking points highlighted what a poor choice McCain made.  Obama also had the experience deficit but his intelligence and even keel (according to the MSM narrative) plus his selection of Biden made that team seem much better at handling the crisis than the McCain-Palin team.

    But for the cratering of the economy and the financial system, this race would be much closer.  Krugman wrote either in his column or blog several weeks ago that Paulson, in not bailing out Lehman Bros, probably handed the election to the Democrats.  I think that he is right.  

     

    BTD is exactly right.... (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by NYShooter on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:59:15 AM EST
    The "fix" has been in since the day Obama gave his speech at Kerry's convention. McCain is finding out what Hillary Clinton learned the hard way; when all the forces are lined up overwhelmingly against you, it's virtually impossible to prevail.

    Even on this site, to what purpose has Sarah Palin's hideous picture graced the home page for the past several weeks? To inform?..... Right.
    While a McCain victory would be a tragedy, the alternative leaves me with an extremely uncomfortable, Pyrrhic victory feeling.

     In high school, everyone takes tests for college admission consideration. They consist of "aptitude," and "achievement." Hanging our hopes on the fact that Obama has run a strategically "brilliant" campaign, while ignoring that his "achievements" have totaled exactly zero should give any cognitive person pause.

    Four years ago, the most memorable quote I remember was the British newspaper's headline, "How could 54,000,000 Americans be so Dumb?"

    Rejecting the most qualified candidate, by far, Hillary Clinton, for an obsessively ambitious, vellum thin resume, "rock star" may supplant the British quote as the "dumbest" decision America has made.

    Until we see the "achievements," Bill Clinton's quote "we're rolling the dice" will have to do.  


    i love it! (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by cpinva on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:16:56 PM EST
    She's the disasta from Alaska

    while gov. palin (should obama win) won't be solely responsible for republican defeat, she's played no small part.

    the primary reason she had such a positive response, in the first two weeks after the convention, is because the campaign kept her out of sight and microphone range. once let loose, her star nova'd, and turned into a black hole. add her state ethics problems, and absolutely no light escapes.

    she's the public epitome' of the old saying: "people may think you a fool. once you open your mouth, you remove all doubt."

    the general public, with the exception of the hard-cores, know she's a fool, and not qualified to step into the oval office. mccain's poor judgment in selecting her was equally on display.

    again, palin wasn't the only problem, merely the most obvious one.

    Hard to follow this logic (none / 0) (#96)
    by oldpro on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 01:10:47 PM EST
    for if you were right about the general public and fools, Bush could not have been reelected with an even bigger margin and the popular vote to boot.

    Explain me that.

    Parent

    geez (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by connecticut yankee on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:17:47 PM EST
    Palin is going nuts today. Every lie she can muster is being spewed on the stump.

    I despise her. Not only is she ignorant but she is rallying the ignorant.  I absolutely despise her.

    Calm down. (none / 0) (#97)
    by oldpro on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 01:11:35 PM EST
    It's politics.

    Parent
    It's a little bit about Palin. (none / 0) (#1)
    by lyzurgyk on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:26:35 AM EST

    My sister and mother (big Hillary fans) have been pressuring me to vote against Obama.   Without Sarah Palin, the odds of me being convinced were about 5 percent.  With Sarah Palin, no chance.

    If McCain doesn't run the right wing wacko campaign, he would have done better with some independents.


    There's something for everyone (none / 0) (#14)
    by MoveThatBus on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:18:04 AM EST
    out there on reasons why they chose the ticket they did.

    My family couldn't possibly vote for Obama, but when he picked Biden, they felt he filled in the gap on his own lacking experience.

    They couldn't vote Republican under any circumstances, and would have found any possible reason to justify that.

    Judging from the huge crowds and record-breaking TV ratings, I'd guess Palin got McCain more votes than she lost him, though.


    Parent

    It's the "my Pastor says" (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:38:29 AM EST
    factor. Palin helped, in that she's galvanized the hard-right, Rapture-or-Bust folks in a way that McCain -- long established as a barely tolerated "RINO" -- could never dream of doing. And the Thugs aren't going anywhere without the religious right.

    Parent
    McCain 2000 (none / 0) (#4)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:42:32 AM EST
    I think Palin was actually sort of an initial wake-up call for folks who remembered the image they had of McCain in 2000 and were ready to maybe vote for that guy.  But then the financial meltdown pretty much pushed everything else to the side.  It's possible that if Romney had been the VP, he might -- might -- have been able to get McCain to focus more sensibly on what he was doing with that, but all Palin could do was echo McCain's confusion.

    OTOH, Republican types on the ground are to this day still pretty glowing about how Palin's nomination brought out floods of campaign volunteers that significantly jacked up their local ground operations.  It may be that, in the end, she helped McCain more than hurt him because of that effect.

    I'm greatly looking forward to the post-mortem stories on all this.  Should be juicy.

    I do somewhat wish I could see what (none / 0) (#7)
    by tigercourse on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:53:19 AM EST
    would have happened with Rommney on the ticket in some parallel world. He was a good businessman, but that basically has little to do with knowing much about the economy. He had even less political experience then Palin. I wonder if he would have been able to speak about economic issues intelligently(something that McCain, Palin and Biden were all unable to do).

    Parent
    Romney (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:36:41 AM EST
    Fractionally less experience as an elected office holder, but his four years were as governor.  Frankly, I loathe the guy, but he was an entirely competent moderate Republican governor and is far more widely knowledgeable than Palin, who has focused in her however many years as mayor and 2 years as governor entirely on specific local concerns.

    Whether McCain, who also loathes Romney, would have allowed him any influence at all is questionable.  But Romney is a steadier, more informed guy on economic issues than McCain and might have given him some grounding, if he'd been permitted to.  Whereas Palin on this issue couldn't be anything more than a puppet jouncing around uncertainly on the end of a string.

    Parent

    Romney (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by CST on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:52:38 AM EST
    I also loathe Romney, and I hate the fact that he is a national  politician right now on the wings of being my Governer.

    That being said, you are right, he is gulp competent, especially on economic issues and he was also reasonably moderate on social issues - at least while he was running for Gov.  The problem with Romney is the exact same problem with McCain.  He is not the man he said he was.

    John McCain is no longer the McCain of 2000, and Romney is no longer the Romney of 2002.  Ironically, the smartest thing for both of them to do would've been to run on their old platforms.  Instead, they both pandered to the right wing, and ultimately I think that cost them both.  Romney was crucified in the primary for being a flip-flopper (which is ironic considering McCain).  Had they run together as true moderate republicans, we might just be looking at another republican white house.

    Parent

    Probably true, especially considering (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by dk on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:54:45 AM EST
    that the person who did essentially run as a moderate republican (Obama) is going to win.

    Parent
    Heh Romney is nowhere man (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:48:43 AM EST
    IMHO.  He's never said he was the same guy two elections running.  He was Mr. Progressive when he ran against Teddy.  Romney's core problem is he doesn't believe in squat except for Romney.  His policy preferences and ideological positioning are entirely malleable.

    I think he's a completely phony empty suit, but he doesn't seem to come across that way to a lot of voters, for reasons I can't begin to understand.  So when he settles on his political positioning for a particular election cycle, he comes across as entirely convincing to a lot of people.  This time, he was Mr. Responsible Super-Conservative.

    Parent

    But here's the deal with Romney: (none / 0) (#23)
    by dk on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 09:48:11 AM EST
    Given that he made his millions with private equity and hedge funds and all that, wouldn't he have become the poster boy for the wall street meltdown?  I can just imagine all the commercials that the Obama campaign would have come out with on that.

    I can see how Romney might have helped McCain if the wall street meltdown hadn't occurred, but given the meltdown I think he would have been toxic for McCain.

    Parent

    Not unless he and his (none / 0) (#58)
    by gyrfalcon on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:03:32 AM EST
    business were really heavily involved in CDOs and the other mortgage-related crap that sent us down the rabbit hole financially.  His business seems to be more involved in venture capital and actual investing in businesses, not just making money off of money.  It has done a lot of investing in start-ups, so he can (and does) claim he's been responsible for a lot of job creation.  I think you'd have a hard time making him a poster boy for Wall Street's problems, and in any case, that isn't the kind of campaign style Obama's been interested in doing.

    Seems to me if Obama can get away with having one of the premier Dem. Iraq war hawks as his VP, McCain wouldn't have had any problems with having a Wall Street guy.

    Parent

    Palin mattered (none / 0) (#42)
    by Maggie on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:34:40 AM EST
    See what gets mentioned in those streams of endorsements, many from moderate conservatives.

    And it's a mistake to not notice that there's a limit to how cynical a politician can get without paying a political price for it. It's a mistake not to notice that her divisive rhetoric killed the likeability that otherwise might have 'covered up' her unsuitability for the office.

    I think it's a mistake to try to read mandates from election results.  There's are a million different reasons someone would vote for a candidate in a two-party system.  Obama's getting support from Independents and soft Republicans who are disgusted with the way the country is going and who were put off from McCain by the combination of the Palin pick and his catastrophically inept reaction to the crisis (mutually reinforcing events which combined to scream that the man has no judgment and that he places politics ahead of country).  Those voters are NOT signing on for a radical leftward shift.

    If Obama is as smart as he seems, he's going to avoid partisan social issues like the plague, and focus on the big planks he ran on: health care reform; big energy plan; getting the economy back on track.  Those were the things he sold to "red America and blue America".

    And if Democrats want a ruling majority that extends past this cycle, they won't make a fuss when Obama decides to govern center-left, rather than far left.  The country might be moving off it's rightward tilt -- but it's not going from 0 to progressive in one election cycle.

    And if (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by cal1942 on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:54:19 AM EST
    you're a publicly known Conservative who sees the writing on the wall you'll come out publicly and say that it was Palin not the yield of GOP ideology that was your reason for jumping ship.

    They'll do anything to deflect attention from the gaping holes of their precious ideology.

    And they'll jump right back on the same ship.

    Next election these same people will be selling the same conservative economics snake oil that they've always sold; flattening out taxes, privatizing Social Security, anti-regulation, etc., etc.

    Parent

    Exactly! (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by huzzlewhat on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 03:40:26 PM EST
    Conservatives aren't going to say that McCain is losing because there's something wrong with the ideology -- "Oops! We were wrong! Sign me up for that Universal Healthcare thing!" They're looking for an excuse to jump, something that isn't about their platform being fundamentally unsound.

    It's in the best interests of liberals, if we're hoping to advance a liberal agenda, to not let them make that jump. Tie McCain's loss to the unsound and unproductive policies of the Republican party.  Make them own it -- that will benefit us not only in whether we win or lose this particular election, but in whether we can institute actual real policy changes over the next eight years and beyond.

    Parent

    Paiin effect on McCain (none / 0) (#46)
    by pixpixpix on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 10:40:12 AM EST
    Not being discussed is the effect that having Palin on the ticket had on McCain's behavior and attitude.

    Arguably he would have been a more serious candidate, and perhaps less erratic in his response to the economy, without being distracted and having to defend the ditzy Palin and talking on and on about clothes and plumbers.

    A Romney or a Lieberman could well have steered McCain on a steadier track.

    Even so that point up the fact that McCain perhaps isn't really his own man.

    And then there's Rick Davis and the boys.

    I think the last point is telling: (none / 0) (#87)
    by ThatOneVoter on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:24:40 PM EST
    McCain the erratic maverick, who sometimes embraced good and interesting ideas, has been hiding in an undisclosed location.
    Now, that McCain was not better than Obama, but he was a somewhat serious candidate.
    Remember, McCain voted against Bushs' tax cuts at least once. He doesn't really believe in voodoo economics.

    Parent
    Uh....no.... (none / 0) (#98)
    by oldpro on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 01:25:27 PM EST
    a Romney or a Lieberman would have lost him the support (dollars AND votes) of the base who would have stayed home or voted constitution or write-in.  They would never have accepted Romney (the Mormon flip-flopper from Massachusetts!) or Lieberman...the pro-choice sometime-Democrat.

    Parent
    Can't find the recent chart again (none / 0) (#60)
    by rilkefan on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:07:37 AM EST
    (was on Drum or Ezra Klein or mydd, probably) but McCain's presence in the free media has been significantly lower (~15%?) than Obama's for most of the campaign.  McCain needed Palin to just get some attention or be ignored out of the contest.  It didn't work, but McCain isn't a good candidate when exposed and this isn't a survivable year for someone who voted 90% with WPE.

    Why in Florida? (none / 0) (#64)
    by oculus on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:15:52 AM EST
    To be sure, Sarah Palin has had an uneven performance (and clearly hurts McCain in Florida.)


    Her version of xianity (none / 0) (#75)
    by rilkefan on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:57:34 AM EST
    scares some of the ex-snowbird non-xians there, so the argument goes.

    Parent
    Obama is specifically (none / 0) (#76)
    by coigue on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 11:58:32 AM EST
    making this about the failure of trickle down economics.

    Palin, IMO is both a pos and a neg for McCain. She is a positive in that he needed bodies, volunteers...and she excited the base. A negative because his lack of vetting speaks directly to his judgement, ad is a stark contrast to Obama's thoughtful responses to situations. Now the question is: experience v judgement?

    Palin's unfavorable (none / 0) (#90)
    by JThomas on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 12:40:39 PM EST
    ratings are at an all time high for a vp candidate. That would seem to indicate that indys and dems and some repubs are concerned about her ability to be president on day one.

    She was a positive for the base but I think those folks still come home if he selected Romney. During a crisis like we are experiencing..she gave no comfort to the undecided voters.

    I think Obama wins either way, but she has hurt McCain. She will be like Huckabee, a leader in that segment of the Republican party, but it remains doubtful that you can win in the future with only christian conservatives behind you.

    "Those folks" don't come home (none / 0) (#99)
    by oldpro on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 01:33:06 PM EST
    with Romney.  You forget...he's a Mormon and many in the base don't even think Mormons are Christian.

    Huckabee might have been the better choice for McCain but somehow they didn't click.

    Parent

    Are YOU ready for the USSA??? (none / 0) (#103)
    by RocknRod on Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 08:30:42 PM EST
    The REAL change under an Obama administration will be the small change left in your wallet after he taxes your paycheck to "redistribute" the wealth in the new "United Socialist States of America" i.e. USSA