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Democrats Debate in New Hampshire

The Democratic Debate at Saint Anselm College in Manchester, N.H. begins at 8pm ET. ABC is hosting the debate. Here's a thread to discuss it.

ISIS is probably very happy tonight knowing the candidates all know what's in their videos. If the Government succeeds in taking them down, how will the candidates know what they are sayig?

O'Malley is like Henney Penny "We're Under Attack." He says we don't have enough spying. He wants CIA covert intelligence and diplomatic intelligence. And human intelligence. We need a cabinet member. ISIS is now a "genocidal threat." Even Central America is a threat. [More...]

Bernie knows nothing about ISIS, he tries to change the topic to the 1% and economic problems. Bernie talks about "regime change". He keeps harping on a coalition to fight ISIS -- does he not know we have had a coaliton. Hillary knocks him, reminding him he voted for regime change in Libya.

The data issue flamed out quick.

How come the debate isn't on cspan? Watching the ABC analysts before the debate began was tortuous. I muted them.

Why did the Dems set a debate on the Saturday night before Christmas? Who is even watching?

Update: Can someone please incorporate a new city for Martin O'Malley to govern? He keeps pumping his creds as the best mayor in history -- under his stewardship, every social and economic ill was solved and his jurisdiction led the world and outer space.

No relief from the war on drugs from this group. Bernie blames doctors for heroin addiction and says addiction is a disease not a criminal issue. Shorter version: Lets treat the users and jail the doctors over prescribing opiods. (Sorry, that's not the answer. Pill restrictions just push people to heroin.)

Props to Hillary for at least saying cops should carry naloxone.

Here's O'Malley with "I know all about this." Treat a drug overdose like ebola at the hospital.

The ABC analyst with George Stephanopoulus is terrible. All he's done is bash Hillary for Libya. He loves Republicans. He should have a chiron that says "Republican Shill."

Closings: My view: Hillary won this debate, just like the others. Her answers showed she's already moved on from the primaries -- she's focused on the general election. Bernie gave her so many compliments, it was head scratching. He stopped himself while answering a question to turn to her and praise her skills and legacy as First Lady. Hillary ended the debate with the line: "Thank you, good night and May the Force be With You." The crowd loved it.

Her best line: When Sanders asked her if Wall St. should love her, she answered with a big smile, "Everyone should love me."

< Sanders Sues DNC, Case Settled, Dems to Debate in NH | The Making of a Narco-Terror Case >
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  • Display: Sort:
    Bernie is not the one (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by lentinel on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 08:36:06 PM EST
    talking about regime change.

    That would be Clinton... who has decided that Assad must go.

    She said that he killed 250,000 people.

    Not half as many as we have so far, but it's a start...

    Actually, it depends on which Bernie you listen to (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 01:13:03 PM EST
    The one from last night, or the one from 2 months ago:

    "I support President Obama's effort to combat the Islamic State in Syria while at the same time supporting those in Syria trying to overthrow the brutal dictatorship of Bashar Assad," Sanders said. -- October 15, 2015.


    Parent
    Bernie brought it up by (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 09:29:05 PM EST
    criticizing her for being too supportive of regime change.

    Parent
    And he was (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by lentinel on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 06:05:22 AM EST
    right to do so.

    Parent
    Apparently it's the biggest no-no (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 09:27:28 PM EST
    on the planet to ever talk about who's funding ISIS..

    What's the great fear? that the Saudis will stone another twenty rape victims to death of they're ever implicated in that discussion?

    Does Hillary really think that in the long term the dictator Assad, who "kills his own people" in a civil war, is a greater threat to peace and stability and enlightenment than the impossibly backward, corrupt regime in SA?

    Well, good luck with that discussion. (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 10:34:51 PM EST
    Let's face it, when it comes to the House of Saud and its support and export of Wahhabi fundamentalist extremism, we've collectively had our heads up our butts for decades now. 17 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens and Wahhabi devotees, and at least some of them were receiving financial support from no less than the wife of Prince Bandar, who was then the Saudi Ambassador to the U.S. If those facts weren't enough to open our eyes to the problem, then I really don't know what will.

    Parent
    It is not right (none / 0) (#24)
    by lentinel on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 10:09:34 AM EST
    that Assad kills his own people.

    We can kill his people with much greater efficiency - and it won't cost him a dime.

    Parent

    Enough with the left-wing moral reprobation. (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 03:15:54 PM EST
    By most reliable estimates, Bashar al-Assad is responsible for the deaths of somewhere between 151,000 and 343,000 of his own people over the last four years. At least twice that number have probably been injured or wounded during that same period.

    A further four million-plus Syrians have since fled the country altogether as refugees. Another estimated seven million of them have been dislocated internally and would likely flee as well, if the refugee camps in neighboring Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon weren't already at peak capacity and unable to absorb any more.

    But per usual, you never miss a self-perceived opportunity to demonize your own country and cast it as the Great Satan, even if by doing so you rhetorically mitigate or minimize the monstrosity of other people's crimes against humanity. And in this particular instance, it's a false equivalency.

    Most people at TL are intelligent and well-informed, and are likely fully aware that U.S. policies have caused tremendous harm in the Middle East region and have been the source for a lot of grief and misery of late. Few if any of us are saying that criticism of these policies isn't fully warranted.

    So, it's not like you're exactly breaking any new ground here or providing some sort of unique insight with these comments, which often appear to be no more than an endless litany of caustic remarks offered merely for their own sake, and thus do little or nothing to enhance the public discussion.

    And in that regard, you act like you're no better than the wingbats on Fox News, when truth be told you are actually WAY BETTER than that, whenever you take the time to put some thought into what you say and don't simply phone in the snarky self-righteousness.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I am an American. (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 07:55:32 AM EST
    But per usual, you never miss a self-perceived opportunity to demonize your own country and cast it as the Great Satan

    This is the same cr@p people with your turn of mind used to level at Americans opposed to the war in Vietnam.

    If I see my country repeating a pattern that has led to nothing but death and violence and suppression, I am inclined to try express my feelings about it.

    People of your turn of mind, like McCarthy of the 1950s, tend to dismiss this as un-American.

    I don't care for that point of view.
    And if it is representative of a current mantra in the Democratic party, it is pathetic - and saddening because it leaves the field wide open for the likes of a Trump, for whom you feign contempt.

    Parent

    You (none / 0) (#44)
    by lentinel on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 06:15:17 PM EST
    sound like a typical right-wing hack.

    Sad to say.

    Parent

    ... is all meringue and no filling. Being a true progressive requires more than regularly venting the contents of one's spleen. If all you've got left is name-calling, then I was right -- you ARE no better than the wingbats on Fox News. And if you don't like the pushback, then don't offer such shallow and baseless commentary.

    Parent
    You've leveled this claim numerous times, (5.00 / 3) (#96)
    by shoephone on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 02:07:16 AM EST
    Being a true progressive requires more than regularly venting the contents of one's spleen.

    and it still sounds empty and arrogant, Donald. For the record, your uber-political-aide schtick is at least as tiresome.

    Parent

    lentinel's comments are nothing more ... (none / 0) (#100)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 06:12:05 AM EST
    ... than variations on the same America-bashing theme. Her criticism of our country is both relentless and flippant, and often delivered without any real due regard for what's actually going on.

    And in this instance, her false equivalence of Assad's very real war crimes with whatever it is that the Obama administration thinks it's doing in Syria, even going so far as to insinuate that we've somehow killed twice as many of Assad's people as he has, and further that we're just itching to do it "more efficiently," -- well, that's just pure and unadulterated bullcrap, not to mention patently offensive.

    Look, our country is hardly "the bright and shining city on the hill" that some people like to say it is, and U.S. policies which are immoral and / or counterproductive to the general health and well being of our planet and its inhabitants can and should rightly be criticized.

    But neither is America the devil incarnate, as lentinel regularly loves to imply. That sort of toxic far-left flamethrowing is entirely antithetical to the cause of liberalism, because conservatives then seize upon it as free license to publicly and collectively impugn our own patriotism.

    And given the present state of our media, which already lists heavily to starboard as it is, that's not a public fight we're likely going to win. I dearly wish it were otherwise, but it's not. We're never going to get any mulligans from a conservative media that loves to paint entire communities of "The Others" with the same broad brush. Why make it easy for them to do so with such thoughtlessly cavalier rhetoric?

    It would be different were lentinel to support such incendiary comments on merit, but she's not. I called her out on the baseless substance of her remarks. She responded by getting personal and calling names -- as now are you, apparently.

    And when your response to a substantive and even vigorous challenge from someone regarding the merit of your own comments is to call that person names and make it personal, then you've lost the argument.

    That goes for her, as well as for you, who apparently couldn't even be bothered to address the original issue before insulting me.

    Good night.

    Parent

    Do a little reading Don the Warrior... (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 05:22:33 AM EST
    Last month, the Washington DC-based Physicians for Social Responsibility (PRS) released a landmark study concluding that the death toll from 10 years of the "War on Terror" since the 9/11 attacks is at least 1.3 million, and could be as high as 2 million.

    The 97-page report by the Nobel Peace Prize-winning doctors' group is the first to tally up the total number of civilian casualties from US-led counter-terrorism interventions in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    To this, the PSR study adds at least 220,000 in Afghanistan and 80,000 in Pakistan, killed as the direct or indirect consequence of US-led war: a "conservative" total of 1.3 million. The real figure could easily be "in excess of 2 million".

    See also the reports of the civilians killed by our "allied" strikes in Raqqa. (That's in Syria).

    Perhaps you, Mr. Donald, think that they prefer to be killed by us rather than by their own government, but I'm not sure about that.

    Parent

    That study estimates the total number of ... (none / 0) (#102)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 07:45:16 AM EST
    ... deaths, regardless of cause, in a multi-faceted and multi-lateral regional conflict with roots which long predate our own direct involvement as a result of 9/11. And were we to simply pull out unilaterally tomorrow, those conflicts would continue.

    I've read the report. Have you, with any real comprehension as to its actual contents? As of March 2015, approximately 210,000 civilians in those three countries have died violent deaths as a result of the wars. That report further considers other deaths from collateral causes, such as malnutrition, disease and epidemic resulting from a deterioration and breakdown of social order and infrastructure as a result of the conflicts.

    There's a considerable amount of blame and fault to be portioned out here, and the United States is certainly due a big share. In Iraq, the blame for the carnage can fairly be said to be ours exclusively, given that our invasion destabilized the country.

    But we weren't talking about Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, were we? Rather, we were talking about the conflict in Syria, which like those other countries had its own serious internal issues simmering below the surface, which long predate our involvement.

    But since you've now moved the goalposts and want to discuss Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, fine. It is a fact that most of the people who've been killed in those countries have lost their lives not at our hands, but rather at those of their fellow countrymen. Civil and internecine conflicts are often the most brutal and cruel of all wars. To the extent that we are to blame, it's that we facilitated the escalation and intensification of these existing conflicts upon our arrival.

    But don't mislead yourself or others into thinking that these conflicts in the Middle East and South Asia somehow never existed until we arrived, because they most certainly did.

    In recent history, over one million people lost their lives in the 1980-88 war between Iraq and Iran. There was a two-decade-long civil war in Lebanon. The current conflict in Afghanistan is directly rooted in the 1979 Soviet invasion. Israel and Egypt fought four wars between 1948 and 1972. Pakistan has fought three major wars with India since both attained independence from Britain in 1948. The Kurds have been fighting the Turks, Arabs and Persians for autonomy since the days of the Ottoman Empire.

    The fighting in the region has never ceased. There are only periodic lulls. That's why it was so foolish on our part to get directly involved there in the first place. Now that we are, we're finding it none too easy to subsequently disengage.

    Where I take issue with you directly is your singular determination to always lay the entirety of fault upon the doorstep of your own country, and in this particular instance without any real due consideration for the complexity of the situation in the Middle East and South Asia, or the region's own terribly violent history. Glib does not account for nuance.

    And in that regard, you are merely the mirror image of the wingbats on the far right, who would otherwise hold the U.S. entirely blameless for the present situation. Our country's interests are never well served, whenever we allow such complex and difficult matters to be defined for us in starkly black-and-white terms by fringe elements at either or both ends of the political spectrum.

    I'm done here. Aloha.

    Parent

    Our interventions have killed millions. (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:56:54 AM EST
    Where I take issue with you directly is your singular determination to always lay the entirety of fault upon the doorstep of your own country, and in this particular instance without any real due consideration for the complexity of the situation in the Middle East and South Asia, or the region's own terribly violent history.

    Yes.

    I am an American.
    I have been told that there is a constitutional right for citizens of this country to be critical of its policies.

    Our country until Bush, and continuing under Obama, has killed millions of innocent people and displaced millions more.

    And with Hillary Clinton, who criticizes Obama for not taking her advice sooner to get involved militarily in Syria, we can look forward to even more massacres under her or Trump. She blames Obama, in a veiled fashion, for the chaos in Syria right now. She thinks he should have armed the "rebels" sooner - those swell folks who shot at the Russian pilots as they descended in their parachutes.

    She just shamelessly repeated that cr@p during that "debate" last Saturday - scheduled during a time period guaranteed to suppress viewership - and thus the presentation of other viewpoints other that those of Bush/Obama/Clinton.

    I think it is the patriotic duty of citizens to speak out against policies of our government that are as draconian as those we are presumed to be opposing.

    You don't like that.


    Parent

    Did she actually SAY ... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 01:14:16 PM EST
    ... he was a bigger threat?  That would be a good place to start.

    Parent
    Best lines..... (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by lentinel on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 10:08:11 AM EST
    Hillary's best line...

    When asked if Wall St. should love her, she answered, "Everyone should love me."

    Sanders best line:

    When asked if Wall St. should love him, answered, "No".

    Of the two "best lines", I'll go with Sanders.

    best line on the internet (none / 0) (#29)
    by ragebot on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 03:14:57 PM EST
    I took a bathroom break during the debate and got back before Hillary did.

    Parent
    LOL! (none / 0) (#31)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 03:34:22 PM EST
    In my case, that was certainly true!

    But let's be fair. Women on average take longer than men in the john for obvious reasons which need not be further detailed. As evidence, all one has to do is attend any major public / sporting event, and bear witness to how much longer the lines extending outside the women's rooms are, compared to the same for the men's rooms.

    (That's why those who design and build public venues should actually provide more restrooms for women than for men, rather than merely an equal number.)

    David Muir should not have re-started the questions again until Mrs. Clinton had returned to the stage and taken her place at the podium. That's on him, not her, and I'm sure his producer subsequently let him know that.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Well, that "Depends" (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by shoephone on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 04:00:26 PM EST
    There's a variable at play...I've noticed in recent times that my male friends or partners "of a certain age" use the public facilities a lot more often than I do.

    Main reasons:

    1. Prostrates acting up
    2. Men drink more alcohol than I do (although most people of either gender drink more than I do).

    Didn't watch the debate, but it sounds like a slightly comical moment.

    Parent
    Since my kidney stone (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 04:02:54 PM EST
    My "goal" is supposed t be peeing 2-3 liters a day.

    Parent
    My urologist has a favorite saying (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 04:48:40 PM EST
    "The solution to pollution is dilution"
    Sounds like a pain but trust me if you ever have a kidney stone and learn this is the best defense you will have NO problem peeling as many liters as needed.

    Parent
    certainly hope (none / 0) (#49)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 07:10:45 PM EST
    you are feeling better, Howdy, & that the problem ever recurs

    the pain of a kidney stone concentrates the mind, i am told

    Parent

    HA thank you (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 07:12:27 PM EST
    I am indeed.   And indeed it does.

    Parent
    And an enlarged prostate is one of them. At almost 55, I'm one of the lucky ones who've avoided that affliction thus far, knock on wood.

    And yes, it was funny when Mrs. Clinton hustled back on stage after the break and said "Sorry," while David Muir had already launched into the next question. The audience laughed. At the same time, though, I was also embarrassed for Muir's obvious failure to wait until everyone was back onstage before starting again. That, IMHO, was totally unprofessional.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    The debate (5.00 / 3) (#36)
    by KeysDan on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 05:04:16 PM EST
    was informative and as in-depth as the forum permitted, with each of the three candidates presenting and explaining their positions.

     Mrs. Clinton commanded the stage, both in presence and presentation.  Senator Sanders was very good, but seemed most comfortable with a version of his focused message, no matter the question.

     Governor O'Malley seemed to believe that he needed to break out from the pack by speaking rapidly, loudly and out-of-turn. At least, in the beginning until he settled down to answer questions within the framework of his Maryland experience.

     It would have had more (or some) impact if he not only told what he did, but how he did it--and how it extrapolates to the nation.  He tried hard, but he just is not in the same league as Mrs. Clinton or Senator Sanders--experience showed, despite the Governor's attempt to infuse a "generational" perspective. He is better to reach for vice president, although either Sanders or Clinton are likely to seek a running mate with different qualities or demographics.

    As I predicted, with fingers crossed, the big scandal was put to bed with a gracious, albeit prodded, apology by Senator Sanders, and a gracious acceptance and admonition by Mrs. Clinton to move on, to discuss issues of meaning to most citizens. No doubt a disappointment to media, but the right thing to do for Sanders, Clinton and the DNC.

    The primary process appears to be working. Despite attempts to highlight differences between Senator Sanders and Mrs. Clinton, there appeared to be more in common than not.  Mrs. Clinton has moved toward Sander's positions in some areas (income inequality) and Sanders has moved toward positions of Mrs. Clinton (sensible gun regulations).

     Sanders often deferred to Mrs. Clinton, such as mentioning that she knows a lot about health care and acknowledged that matters such as Iraq and Syria are not uncomplicated.  Aside from historical positions, the big difference on Syria seemed to be that Mrs. Clinton advocates for a dual and simultaneous track, destroy ISIS and remove Assad, whereas, Sanders orders priorities toward ISIS first, then Assad. Fair but arguable points.

    Mrs. Clinton aimed her guns (and Senator Sanders did so subsequently) at the Republican candidates generally, but mentioned only one by name, Trump.  The others were not worthy of mention--particularly when Trump so epitomizes the crazy that exists across the Republican spectrum. And, Clinton criticism will inflame and bolster Trump among Republicans.  At this point, a savvy move.

    Mrs. Clinton took the debate by a long mile. Senator Sanders was very good and better than at the last debate. The soft ball question about spouses served Senator Sanders well, augmenting his political passion with personal warmth. Governor O'Malley  used up his "Katie" references earlier and the rerun was ineffective.

    Any one of the three candidates would be eons and eons above the worst of the Republican candidates, of which their are nine from which to chose.

    Hillary channeled her inner (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Anne on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 07:07:02 PM EST
    Republican on foreign policy and health care:

    Her hawkishness is deeply ingrained in her--we recently learned that she talks to the same foreign policy people that Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz do--so it was no surprise that she objected when Sanders wondered aloud if she was too eager to intervene in other countries.

    [...]

    Clinton also, rather shamefully, protected her right flank by casting Sanders' call for single payer health care as a budget-busting middle class tax hike. Only the experience of every industrialized country in the world contradicts this narrative. It's an extremely well-known fact that single payer is vastly cheaper than the American system. But Clinton clearly thinks it's more important to say that she won't raise middle class taxes than to tell the truth about this issue. (Her definition of what constitutes the middle class, by the way, is a strange one.) Sanders pointed out that, on that basis, Clinton wouldn't support Social Security, Medicare or even the $1.38/week increase to the payroll tax that a bill in the Senate would require to fund paid family leave.

    On health care, she was really, deeply wrong:

    During the candidates' discussion on college education, Clinton stated that Senator Sanders' proposals would cost trillions of dollars, saying, "Free college, a single payer system for health, and it's been estimated we're looking at 18 to $20 trillion, about a 40 percent [dent] in the federal budget."

    This is flat wrong.

    The $18 trillion price tag comes from an article published in the Wall Street Journal. Authored by Laura Meckler, the piece attributes the vast majority-- $15 trillion-- of this exorbitant amount to Bernie Sanders' plan to expand Medicare and guarantee care for all sick or injured Americans.

    Meckler writes that, "... a similar proposal [to expand Medicaid] in Congress... would require $15 trillion in federal spending over 10 years on top of existing federal health spending, according to an analysis of the plan by Gerald Friedman, an economist at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst."

    Only problem?

    Gerald Friedman himself disagrees.

    [...]

    In the cited research paper, Friedman clearly writes, "Health care financing in the U.S. is regressive, weighing heaviest on the poor, the working class, and the sick. With the progressive financing plan outlined for HR 676 (below), 95% of all U.S. households would save money."

    Hillary Clinton spreading the idea that a single-payer health care system would bankrupt America is keeping U.S. citizens sick, injured, and broke. Right now, we have a failing health care system, and a single-payer system that would be both cheaper and provide care to every single woman, man, and child, is desperately needed.

    So, my question is, if Hillary's decided now to run to Sanders' right on these issues, how much farther to the right will she run against a Republican?

    Sure, she wants corporate America to love her, she thinks someone making $250,000 is in the middle class, has said she's open to changes to Social Security.  

    She must be feeling very confident that Bernie's no real threat, so why not drop this little flirtation she's had with actual progressive politics?  Test the market, see if she's as viable as a center-right Democrat.

    Will the real Hillary Clinton please stand up?  Is there a real Hillary Clinton?

    Parent

    Numbers just do not matter because none of (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by ruffian on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:19:27 PM EST
    what Sanders is proposing is going to happen in the next 8 years even if he is elected. It's just not. I may want it, you may want it, even jimppj may want part of it...but our viewpoint is not the majority in Congress. If it were Bernie could work his magic without being POTUS.

    I still have not seen any sign of the huge movement that is going to change the congressional calculus.

    Parent

    House of Reps changes every two years (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by shoephone on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:39:36 PM EST
    not every eight. So...you can predict who's going to be elected to Congress over the next eight-year period? You can predict which legislation will or will not pass between January 2017 and January 2025? That must be some crystal ball you've got there!

    Oftentimes, big social and legislative change starts at the local and state level. I'd bet that eight years ago there were lots of people who never believed we'd have a number of states moving the national conversation forward on legalization of both marijuana and same-sex marriage. And yet. Here we are.

    The only people who deride the possibility of meaningful policy changes are those who don't actually want them to become reality.

    Parent

    With the way the districts are gerrymandered (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by ruffian on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:04:43 PM EST
    It is a safe bet that the next eight years will be more or less like the last eight. If single payer health care or even Medicare expansion passes I will be happy and shocked.

    I'm not deriding anything, I am saying it is a very long shot. Your last statement is quite a pronouncement. Never heard that one before.

    Parent

    You didn't say it was a "longshot" (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by shoephone on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:16:33 PM EST
    You said there was no way it would happen:

    Numbers just do not matter because none of what Sanders is proposing is going to happen in the next 8 years even if he is elected. It's just not. I may want it, you may want it, even jimppj may want part of it...but our viewpoint is not the majority in Congress. If it were Bernie could work his magic without being POTUS.

    And yeah, I firmly believe that the people who say "this or that isn't possible" are the people who don't have an interest in working toward making that thing possible. There's practicality, and then there's negativity. I've worked in organizations with people who shoot down every big idea by saying "forget it, it can't be done."  Sadly, when those people are in the majority, that attitude becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: the goal doesn't get achieved. I prefer to align myself with people who want to work towards making the big ideas happen...even if the odds seem "long."

    You may be right about the results of gerrymandering, you may not be. What I sense is someone who has so much derision for Sanders, she's shooting down those ideas, simply because he's the one promoting them.

    Parent

    I'm not going to quibble about the difference (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by ruffian on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 10:40:02 PM EST
    between 'long shot' and 'no way'.

    You're right - I am being practical to the point of negativity. I was right there saying Obama should have tried harder to make single payer happen when he had the chance, but since then maybe I have seen how much harder it was than I thought at the time.  Something did make me less optimistic. This is not the country I though it was. I don't think it has that much to do with the expenses - it has to do with what people see as their 'freedom' being taken away - their freedom to be robbed blind by the health care industrial complex, but they see it as their freedom nonetheless.  Is Sanders is the one that can make the argument that people respond to? We'll see.  I'm already converted, so he does not have to persuade me. I talk about this regularly to friends, coworkers, etc - I'm not talking the ideas down.  You're right - personally I do not connect with him so I extrapolate and doubt his ability to 'sell' the ideas to others.

    Ironically I think at this stage in her career Hillary Clinton could persuade people about single payer better than she and Bill did in the 90s. But I think she made her own calculations about politics and the art of the possible in the current climate, which is after all what we have to work with.

    Parent

    That's a fair response, ruffian (5.00 / 4) (#93)
    by shoephone on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 11:23:09 PM EST
    and I can respect that. I'm cynical as well, but that is mostly because I've had to dismiss the obvious and put my faith in people like Obama and the Clintons, who proved to me a long time ago that, like a lot of politicians, they really don't care about my values--they care about getting and keeping power. And they need to be pushed mightily into doing anything close to the right thing.

    I don't think Sanders needs to be pushed very far to reflect and support my values. At all. He's there already. Clinton may be a brilliant, talented politician, but she has priorities that simply don't match my own. She focuses on foreign policy to the detriment of domestic policy, in my view. I'm tired of war. I'm tired of aligning with the wrong governments and tribes, I'm tired of the unconstitutional violations on my civil liberties, and I'm tired of us killing innocent people to feed the voracious corporations and defense contractors. I'm 56 yo, and I want truly affordable healthcare, and I'm sick and f*cking tired of politicians who either don't think that's an imperative, or pretend they do, but lie about numbers and cozy up to the insurance lobby.

    Clinton needs to pushed. Hard. And if that's the only role Sanders can realistically play in this election cycle, then so be it. I'll be applauding him every single time he forces her to tack to the left on issues that matter to working Americans, because that's where she needs to be. She's a Democrat for cr*p's sake. Investment bankers have f*cked this nation's middle and lower classes six ways from Sunday. I'm not interested in Democrats who want to continue rewarding them. As Harry Truman said, when given the choice between a Republican, and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, people will vote for the Republican every time. Hello, President Trump, Cruz or Rubio. Don't doubt it.

    I guess it's sorta humorous for HRC to say "Everybody should love me!" when asked if Wall Street loves her. But I'm a lot more impressed by someone who can stand on that debate stage and say "No, Wall Street should not love me." At least Sanders has the courage to tell us where he stands, while Clinton--who is firmly in the pocket of Wall Street--swerves around the question and plays the comedienne.

    What's to love about that?

    Parent

    I get you. There are a couple of areas where you (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by ruffian on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 07:41:19 AM EST
    are even more cynical than I am, if that is possible - for one, I don't think the Clintons or Obama care more about getting and keeping power than they do about our shared values.  I think the power is a means to an end, and I still trust them to go mostly in the direction I want and do good things in the world.  Sure, they love being able to use the power, the prestige, trappings, etc. Only those of us who have never had power at anywhere near that level can say we would not love it too.

    I've said many times that the thing I admire most about both Clintons is their ability to analyze a situation, explain it, and coherently explain solutions. I trust that in most things they have studied harder and have more understanding than I do, so by and large I trust their solutions.  Are they in Wall Street's pocket? I would like to see Hillary seriously address that question point by point. I wish debate moderators would get into some depth there.  Sanders would be more effective in my view if he went into more detail instead of talking about campaign contributions.  But that's just me. I like the wonky stuff.

    I'd also like a glimpse of what a Sanders general election message would look like. HRC has focused not he long term goal of winning the general election - and I know that is presumptuous, and kudos to people that call her out on it and make her remember she has to talk to Democrats first...but still - what is Sanders' strategy to winning a general election?  If I saw a path there I would not be so worried that supporting him means Pres Cruz.   I think Truman's maxim is generally true, but not this year when the GOP candidates are so odious. People in the middle will pick a Dem that acts like a Republican (adopting your formulation  I think HRC is a long way from acting like a 2016 era Republican - 1992 I will grant you)  over any of those GOP candidates.

    Parent

    Getting a shot at a better health system (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Anne on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:19:09 PM EST
    is a lot harder when people are being misled about the cost, don't you think?  The numbers Clinton reeled off last night are not accurate; she actually misrepresented them.

    Yeah, it's gonna be a lot harder to get a better system with someone at the helm who doesn't want to go there.  It's not that I necessarily think that Sanders alone can get it done, but at least I know it's something he supports, something he's willing to fight for and work toward.  

    I'm sure the insurance companies will love Clinton as much as Wall Street does.

    Parent

    Will certainly stay this way in the House (none / 0) (#74)
    by CoralGables on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:06:25 PM EST
     through 2020

    Parent
    Ohhh...so you're the one with the crystal ball (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by shoephone on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:19:01 PM EST
    I bow down to you, master of all things unseen.

    Parent
    Actually numbers do matter (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by MO Blue on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:45:52 PM EST
    No movement towards a better health care system will ever happen as long as Democratic politicians, Republicans and some members of the media continue to repeat corporate lies.

    No movement towards a better health care system will ever happen as long as citizens say the lies do not matter rather than promote the truth.


    Parent

    You've completely missed the point. (none / 0) (#57)
    by Anne on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:27:46 PM EST
    The point? (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:03:31 PM EST
    Mischaracterizing her statements/positions and then ending with a silly "question".

    Not much of a 'point'.

    Parent

    Entirely possible (none / 0) (#58)
    by ruffian on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:34:47 PM EST
    "Mrs. Clinton took the debate (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by KeysDan on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 11:03:21 PM EST
    by a long mile," was, of course, (a)a subjective opinion of mine, and (b)an opinion about the debate that took place on December 19.

      My reservation of Mrs. Clinton's candidacy does relate, as well, to a concern of a muscular foreign policy, but I did not detect a particularly hawkish view in the presentation of foreign policy.  Some strategies presented during the debate, such as a no-fly zone or her previous idea of arming the so called good rebels, may be ill-advised or counterproductive.

     And,it would not be an unusual debate point to object to an opponent wondering aloud that she is too eager to intervene in other countries--at a minimum she would claim due diligence.

     However, she, like Senator Sanders, was opposed to using, other than special operations, regular troops on the ground. And, she looked to a possible UN peace initiative as the linchpin to resolution.

     The linked article that Mrs. Clinton talks to the same people that Rubio and Cruz do, sounds less ominous to me than the article's title, that she talks to the same consulting firm--a firm started in 2013 by her former assistant secretary of state and her long-time spokesman.

     The firm has a broad and bipartisan advisory board to appeal to a range of potential clients.  Not unheard of in DC. This particular firm includes a former Bush official in the DOD on an advisory board, who does advise Rubio mostly on defense, according to the former Bush official, but on a range of matters as well.

    Senator Sanders position on single payer and his dismay that the US is alone in not having health care as a right is spot on, in my view.  However, this was a debate. It gave him an opportunity to counter any misrepresentations and to present a skeletal structure of how that could be done--replacement for ACA with concurrent expansion of Medicare?  Senator Sanders response was not clear or effectively argued.

    My assessment, subjective as it is, looked to the debate itself. How were positions presented and defended. A talent necessary for an effective presidency.  It seems to me that some of the assessments that appear are based on dislikes and/or pre-formed judgments that impinged on the debate.   Not unreasonable, but not necessarily debate-based.

    Parent

    The real Hillary Clinton... (none / 0) (#99)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 05:39:47 AM EST
    September: "I am a moderate".

    October: "I am a progressive".

    November: "I am a progressive who likes to get things done."

    On balance, she is a progressive who willingly compromises her integrity and her intelligence and lapses into the Goldwater Girl that still haunts her psyche.

    Parent

    Well maybe because (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:42:46 AM EST
    "The Democratic Party" isn't actually as left as many think it is (or wish it to be) because that would make it a minority party. (For example, I'm wondering how many good liberals here drive American brand cars, and have all along, to support union labor, as well as profits staying in the US?)

    (My bold below)

    The Democratic Party is moving to the left. The Obama administration will end as the most liberal presidency since Lyndon Johnson's. The Democratic grassroots has embraced figures like Elizabeth Warren, and now, Bernie Sanders, who call for class consciousness and a fundamental change to the balance of American politics. And even as she runs to the right of Sanders, Clinton's second White House campaign is measurably more liberal than the one she ran in 2008.

    What this means, in practice, is a Democratic Party that's less hesitant--and in the case of Sanders, more forthright--about using national government to solve or ameliorate social problems, from income inequality and low wages to gun violence and health care access. It's a Democratic Party that has put paid leave and child care at the top of its agenda, on top of strengthening programs like Obamacare and expanding others like Social Security.

    But there's a problem. The Democratic Party is still a coalition, and it's not a coalition of liberals. Most Democrats, and people who vote for Democratic candidates, are moderates or even right-leaning. They don't share the priorities of their liberal partners. And Democratic politicians have to represent them too, as we see in states like West Virginia and even Pennsylvania.

    What do you do, as a national party leader, when one faction supports broad programs and broad taxes, and the other likes these programs, but prefers tax cuts? Like Barack Obama--and now Hillary Clinton--you split the difference. You raise taxes on the rich, and you use that money to fund modest programs for middle- and working-class Americans, from debt-free college education to tax credits for child care. Anything beyond that, and something has to give. Either you push confiscatory taxes on the rich, or you raise taxes on everyone and compensate with more progressive policy.



    Parent
    That is my point... (5.00 / 4) (#124)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:07:08 AM EST
    The democratic party is not a leftist party.

    It is just perceived as being to the left of the republican party.

    But it has rubber-stamped just about every right wing proposal by its supposed adversaries.

    Our political system has degenerated into a one political party with two ugly heads.

    I, as a democrat, would like to have the opportunity to vote for someone who says that what we have been doing in the middle east since Poppy Bush - invading countries, killing people wholesale, has been not only counterproductive, but has put our country and its people in grave danger.

    I would like to be able to vote for someone saying that if elected, that person would summarily end our involvement in these regional conflicts and civil wars and begin to concentrate on the dreadful conditions we face at home.

    Watching the Democratic party actively working to suppress dissent in its ranks - working to throw roadblocks in the path of people who wish to present progressive alternatives - is sickening.

    Parent

    Then maybe the Democratic Party (none / 0) (#129)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:34:55 AM EST
    Is too moderate for you and you need to align with a different party?

    Parent
    that's what I did (5.00 / 3) (#140)
    by sj on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 04:42:13 PM EST
    Then maybe the Democratic Party (none / 0) (#129)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:34:55 AM MDT

    Is too moderate for you and you need to align with a different party?

    From an official in the Democratic Party, I went to "Unaffiliated" (the Colorado version of "Independent").

    The downside is now I have to re-register as a Dem to vote for caucus for Sanders and vote for him in the primary.

    Realignment is a perfectly reasonable action. So is criticism of leadership.

    Parent

    It's a Big Tent (2.50 / 6) (#131)
    by CoralGables on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:47:26 AM EST
    There's even room for the mopey whiny wing.

    Parent
    Love it... (none / 0) (#141)
    by lentinel on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 05:28:28 PM EST
    or leave it...

    Sounds familiar.

    Actually... it is right on.

    Pols like Hillary don't care about my vote...


    Parent

    They care (2.00 / 2) (#147)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 22, 2015 at 08:16:47 AM EST
    But maybe your views aren't in line with most people who vote for Democratic candidates.  And since there are more people who are not as far left as you are, maybe candidates speak to them more because of sheer numbers.

    No one is getting elected president by only getting far left voters to vote for them.

    Parent

    "Far Left". LOL. (4.00 / 3) (#149)
    by shoephone on Tue Dec 22, 2015 at 12:46:43 PM EST
    Thank you, Senator McCarthy.

    Fact: No Democrat can win the presidency without liberal votes.

    That true liberals are disgusted with the Democratic party is something that should concern any Democratic presidential candidate.

    Parent

    You'really welcome (none / 0) (#150)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 22, 2015 at 12:56:02 PM EST
    No Democrat can win without moderate Democrats and the middle.  That's just the facts. There''s way more of us than you.

    Just as no Republican can win with only the far right.

    Sorry you don't like facts.

    Parent

    Thanks, Senator McCarthy, I know the facts (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by shoephone on Tue Dec 22, 2015 at 01:11:52 PM EST
    You simply don't seem to get it. But, of course, you never do.

    It must be horrible to live with that much intense anger and hatred roiling inside you all the time.

    Parent

    Obama didn't win with just centrist votes (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by shoephone on Tue Dec 22, 2015 at 01:13:05 PM EST
    Fact. Study up.

    Parent
    Way more of "us" people who'd (none / 0) (#153)
    by jondee on Tue Dec 22, 2015 at 01:13:39 PM EST
    be voting Republican if Hillary wasn't running?

    Parent
    At this point, (none / 0) (#154)
    by lentinel on Tue Dec 22, 2015 at 05:51:48 PM EST
    people are looking for someone who seems to have a clue.

    Forget liberal, conservative, moderate, right, left....

    Just someone who doesn't seem bent on getting us blown up.

    Parent

    Not sure how she can be "wrong' (none / 0) (#126)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:11:59 AM EST
    Since it appears that Bernie has not released a detailed health care plan beyond his general talking points of "single payer" and "it will be paid for by the savings you get from bit laying the insurance companies". Can you please point me to his detailed an?

    The only mention of anything health-care related on his website is about lowering drug prices.

    Parent

    She cited a study that was reported (5.00 / 3) (#133)
    by Anne on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 01:57:05 PM EST
    on in the WSJ; the WSJ misrepresented the conclusions of the study's author. Clinton used the WSJ's conclusions to bang on the podium about how it couldn't be done because it would cost some gazilliondy number of dollars.

    Try reading this again:

    The $18 trillion price tag comes from an article published in the Wall Street Journal. Authored by Laura Meckler, the piece attributes the vast majority-- $15 trillion-- of this exorbitant amount to Bernie Sanders' plan to expand Medicare and guarantee care for all sick or injured Americans.

    Meckler writes that, "... a similar proposal [to expand Medicaid] in Congress... would require $15 trillion in federal spending over 10 years on top of existing federal health spending, according to an analysis of the plan by Gerald Friedman, an economist at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst."

    Only problem?

    Gerald Friedman himself disagrees.

    Here is a link to his response.

    Read it, don't read it, I don't care.  But I will say this: we know that Clinton has a mind like a steel trap, that she has the ability to take in vast quantities of information, analyze it, and discuss it with accuracy.  So, why is she trying so hard to trash the idea of a single payer health system by deliberately misrepresenting the research and the conclusions regarding the benefits of such a plan?

    Parent

    I read it the first time (none / 0) (#135)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 02:17:28 PM EST
    I understand what she said and what you wrote. I understand HRC's numbers don't jibe with what some economist theorized about Bernie's plan.  Strangely though. It doesn't address the economic impact of the half a million people working in the industry losing their jobs.  Have you seen anything that addresses this?

    But since Sanders doesn't have a detailed plan out, how are those numbers wrong?  She could overestimating, underestimating, or right on.  We don't know.  We know what Bernie has thrown out in stump speeches and what other people have postulated his plan might look like.

    For a candidate who has single payer as one of his big issues, it's puzzling that he actually doesn't have a specific plan.

    If you can point me to his specific plan, I would appreciate it. I would love single payer, but I'd like to see Sanders detail it.  C'mon Bernie!  Put your plan out there!  What are you afraid of?

    Parent

    OMG, are you really this dense? (3.50 / 2) (#142)
    by Anne on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 05:46:37 PM EST
    Sanders has proposed a move to a single-payer health plan.  The WSJ wrote a story about the cost of a single payer health plan as proposed in HR 676, a bill proposed by John Conyers - not Sanders.  Given that Sanders has not indicated that his plan would look different from HR 676, I think it's reasonable for one to use that as a basis for understanding what Sanders' plan is.

    The problem, as I keep saying, is that the WSJ did not accurately reflect the research's conclusions; instead, it apparently only told part of the story.  It only talked about the bare cost, and did not take into account what such a plan would save. The cost was that part of the story that Clinton cited to bash Sanders' call for a single-payer plan.

    Now I can't read the entire WSJ article without a subscription, so I can only go by what Friedman says about the article that cited his research,  here:

    The Journal correctly puts the additional federal spending for health care under HR 676 (a single payer health plan) at $15 trillion over ten years. It neglects to add, however, that by spending these vast sums, we would, as a country, save nearly $5 trillion over ten years in reduced administrative waste, lower pharmaceutical and device prices, and by lowering the rate of medical inflation.

    These financial savings would be felt by businesses and by state and local governments who would no longer be paying for health insurance for their employees; and by retirees and working Americans who would no longer have to pay for their health insurance or for co-payments and deductibles. Beyond these financial savings, HR 676 would also save thousands of lives a year by expanding access to health care for the uninsured and the underinsured.

    As for this:

    What will happen to all of the people who work for insurance companies?

    The new system will still need some people to administer claims. Administration will shrink, however, eliminating the need for many insurance workers, as well as administrative staff in hospitals, clinics and nursing homes. More health care providers, especially in the fields of long-term care, home health care, and public health, will be needed, and many insurance clerks can be retrained to enter these fields. Many people now working in the insurance industry are, in fact, already health professionals (e.g. nurses) who will be able to find work in the health care field again. But many insurance and health administrative workers will need a job retraining and placement program. We anticipate that such a program would cost about $20 billion, a small fraction of the administrative savings from the transition to national health insurance.

    PNHP has worked with labor unions and others to develop plans for a jobs conversion program with would protect the incomes of displaced clerical workers until they were retrained and transitioned to other jobs.

    This is just common sense, but it does require one to think about the issue.  

    Here's the thing that bothers me: Hillary Clinton is supposed to be well-versed on matters of the health system - she never fails to tell us that she knows a thing or two about it - so there is no way she doesn't know about the cost savings and economic benefits of moving to a single-payer, Medicare for All-type system.  Neither you nor she should insult our intelligence by pretending that she doesn't.

    Parent

    Pretty big leap of faith: (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by oculus on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 06:14:35 PM EST
    Given that Sanders has not indicated that his plan would look different from HR 676, I think it's reasonable for one to use that as a basis for understanding what Sanders' plan is.


    Parent
    Yep (2.00 / 1) (#146)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 22, 2015 at 08:09:30 AM EST
    Someone else introduced a bill, Sanders agrees with the basics, and some people ASSUME that's what a Sanders plan would be. If it's so easy and so similar, why doesn't the Sanders campaign just copy and paste? (I hear they have experience doing that).

    Thanks, Anne for confirming. He just has only bullet points to date and no comprehensive plan.

    Parent

    Seriously (none / 0) (#144)
    by sj on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 08:03:50 PM EST
    That's your takeaway?

    Parent
    It seemed to me to be the foundation (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by oculus on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 08:30:04 PM EST
    of the comment from which I excerpted the quotation.

    Parent
    That was supposed to be for Anne (none / 0) (#130)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:35:47 AM EST
    Threaded wrong

    Parent
    Mrs. Clinton assured viewers Bill (none / 0) (#37)
    by oculus on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 05:28:33 PM EST
    won't be selecting flowers or china for state dinners and she plans to send him on important missions. Hard to imagine her having time to worry about china patterns or flowers either!

    Parent
    Clinton lost (none / 0) (#38)
    by ragebot on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 05:32:22 PM EST
    every poll and online focus group according to this.  But according to the MSM Clinton was a big winner.

    How do the Clinton fanboys explain this.

    Parent

    We actually watched (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 06:01:54 PM EST
    The debate?   It was exactly as Dan described it.  Everyone did what they wanted to do.  Their supporters are pleased.  As far as polls Trevir explained it pretty well below.

    Bernie has more enthusiastic supporters.  Not more supporters.  And honestly Clinton "fanboys" don't need to spin.

    Parent

    C&L (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 06:12:17 PM EST

    Hysterical Drudge debate poll

    It's always fun checking out Conservative websites when they do online polls of Democratic debates and Matt Drudge is one of the biggest political websites of all.

    The fun part isn't that Bernie won the poll because he did well as usual, but it's that conservatives hate Hillary so much they voted for Martin O'Malley almost 5X as much as Hillary. Reality is not their strongest suit.



    Parent
    Easy - they're not polls (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:08:53 PM EST
    Looked at the Time "poll".  The disclaimer said it all.  Sanders support is stronger among millenials and social media.  The problem is, these "polls" aren't actual polls, and the results aren't representative of actual voters.

    Parent
    Yep (none / 0) (#88)
    by sj on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:45:23 PM EST
    online "polls" are not polls at all. Not worth discussing.

    Parent
    They're not (3.00 / 2) (#90)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 10:17:33 PM EST
    Do you need the disclaimer language posted for you?

    From the Time online "poll"

    A disclaimer: Online reader polls like this one are not statistically representative of eligible primary voters. They are a measure, however imprecise, of which candidates have the most energized online supporters, or most social media savvy fan base. After all, what they are counting is the number of Internet-devices controlled by people who want to vote.

    My 18-year-old daughter has an Ipad, laptop, phone, desktop PC and kindle.  But she's not 5 people and she and her fiends are not representative of actual voters,

    Parent

    What is your freaking problem? (5.00 / 3) (#137)
    by sj on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 04:22:31 PM EST
    I agree with you that online polls are not worth discussing and you feel the need to bring out your most obnoxious side and yell about it? You need to take a chill pill and start reading what people are writing. And that includes your own writings.

    Parent
    Off Topic (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by CoralGables on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:04:56 PM EST
    but the Miss Universe Pageant needs Trump back, if for no other reason than to look at Steve Harvey and say, You're Fired!

    A sad commentary on the state (none / 0) (#1)
    by caseyOR on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:17:58 PM EST
    of the commentariat- I respect the analytical skills and opinions of not a single person on the ABC debate panel.

    ... are light-years better than Wolf Blitzer and Megyn Kelly, but that's just me. Besides, I don't want to hear the moderators comment, I want to hear the candidates articulate their views instead.

    Parent
    Almost makes you miss (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:19:09 PM EST
    Wolf Blitzer and Meghan Kelly.

    Almost

    Parent

    Are sound problems (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:34:07 PM EST
    Happening for everyone or just me?

    What? (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Mr Natural on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 10:49:48 AM EST
    For me (none / 0) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 06:05:09 PM EST
    There really was serious sound problems at the beginning.  About every other word dropped.  They disappeared quickly.  Perhaps it was the sat since no one else mentioned it.

    Parent
    There was a lot of discussion (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by MO Blue on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 06:13:19 PM EST
    About a sound problem on another blog so I dont think you were alone.

    Parent
    Blurb from the link (none / 0) (#45)
    by ragebot on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 06:54:49 PM EST
    "Sanders won the CNN focus group, the Fusion focus group, and the Fox News focus group; in the latter, he even converted several Hillary supporters. He won the Slate online poll, CNN/Time online poll, 9News Colorado, The Street online poll, Fox5 poll, the conservative Drudge online poll and the liberal Daily Kos online poll. There wasn't, to this writer's knowledge, a poll he didn't win by at least an 18-point margin. But you wouldn't know this from reading the establishment press. The New York Times, the New Yorker, CNN, Politico, Slate, New York Magazine, and Vox all unanimously say Hillary Clinton cleaned house. What gives?"

    It is one thing to have a single poll with Sanders beating Hillary.  It is a very different thing when every single poll and focus group on both the left and the right have Sanders beating Hillary.

    Parent

    I am SO ready for some actual .voting (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by ruffian on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 07:55:31 PM EST
    Let's just do this thing, may the best candidate win.


    Parent
    WHATever (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 06:59:26 PM EST
    What do you think gives (none / 0) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 07:08:11 PM EST
    Media is in the tank for Clinton?   Seriously.  The media?  "In the tank" for Clinton?  

    To tell you the truth I'm shocked if what you say is true.   Not giving a rats ass what popular opinions are.  If there is such sweeping popular opinion for Bernie.  If you think there is anything the media would love more than an actual contested dem primary I believe you are mistaken.


    Parent

    "The Hillary Clinton Show" (none / 0) (#52)
    by Anne on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 07:43:30 PM EST
    Corporate media outlets often pretend to be "objective" and "neutral." People who work in the media nevertheless understand that this is an impossible task -- and that publications that present themselves as such do so only as a cynical marketing tactic to attract larger audiences (after all, Fox News' slogan is "Fair and Balanced").

    Sometimes, however, media outlets throw the charade out the window altogether and expose whose side they are really on.

    The New York Times did just this today, in its coverage of the third Democratic presidential debate, which was held last night in New Hampshire.

    The first article on the front page of the Times this morning reads "Clinton's Focus In 3rd Debate Is G.O.P. Field." This is the headline for the newspaper's coverage of the debate. It does not have a separate article about Bernie Sanders' role in the debate, yet alone about fellow candidate Martin O'Malley.

    "The NYT writes up the debate as the Hillary Clinton show," wrote journalist and the Nation contributing editor Doug Henwood, author of the hard-hitting new book "My Turn: Hillary Clinton Targets the Presidency."

    Link

    Now, it is the NYT, which has also been known to work against Clinton using questionable sourcing, so take its coverage of this debate for whatever you think it's worth.

    I rather think that there was a limited audience for the debate - why, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, why?  Why, Debbie, do you think it's good to restrict the number of debates, hide the few that you're allowing on nights and at times when no one is going to make an effort to watch, and do this while Republicans are getting prime-time, weeknight debates, and record ratings?

    But, I digress.  I think it's possible that the burgeoning fascism and rising poll numbers of one Donald Trump have actually begun to scare the media just a little bit.  I think their usual desire for drama and chaos may be cooling just a degree or two having realized that no one and nothing has slowed Trump.

    I watched George Stephanopolous this morning, on the phone with Trump.  George was completely unable to control the conversation: Trump steamrolled him with lies and bombast. You can't sway him or deter him even when you have and know the facts.  

    Maybe they're realizing they would be irrelevant if Trump is elected.  But I like to think somewhere deep in their hard little hearts, in the core where they remember they are human, and American, Trump just flat-out scares them.

    Parent

    I'm not familiar with (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by ding7777 on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 09:07:25 AM EST
    all the evil Debbie Wasserman Schultz doings but the number of DNC debates she scheduled is not one of them.

    When DWS announced the 6 debate plan there were 2 candidates - Clinton and Sanders.

    Six debates is ok for a field of 2 (yes, I know the were were as many as 5 and now the are 3 - but
    for all intents and purposes there is really only 2 candidates)

    This isn't the RNC where you have 17 people vying for a couple of minutes of time.


    Parent

    The thing being complained most about (none / 0) (#105)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 09:56:43 AM EST
    Is not the number of debates but the scheduling.  It's hard not to think they were scheduled to get the smallest audience.

     

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#106)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:09:12 AM EST
    now it's the timing. For a while it was the number.

    Parent
    You know what (5.00 / 5) (#107)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:27:40 AM EST
    You can continue to act like this is not a problem.  It doesn't change the fact that it's a problem.  The story, it seems, this morning is becoming that the DNC is picking sides, everyone knows it and no one cares.
    This is not good for the party.   It's not good for Hillary.  I'm telling you that the meme that's developing.  
    And it's bad.

    You can ignore it.  You can act like it's made up.  You can say it's wrong.   You can say Bernie did this or Bernie did that and Bernie is not sorry enough.

    Doesn't change a damn thing.

    It's a problem
    DWS is a problem.

    Parent

    All I'm (none / 0) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:41:28 AM EST
    stating is that there were a lot of complaints on the number of debates initially. When that subsided it was the timing. Are we learning anything from the debates?

    I know there is that perception in some quarters. However Obama is the one that put DWS at the DNC not Hillary.

    Parent

    It's always (none / 0) (#111)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:43:54 AM EST
    About Obama isn't it?  Does it matter to anyone in any way WHO put her in charge?

    Parent
    Obama (none / 0) (#113)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:49:49 AM EST
    did put her in charge. That is a fact. It's up to Obama to get rid of her is it not?

    Parent
    Is there a point (none / 0) (#115)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:51:52 AM EST
    That I'm missing?

    Parent
    Untrue (none / 0) (#139)
    by sj on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 04:31:57 PM EST
    Your first two sentences are false. The poor scheduling has been discussed from the very beginning.
    All I'm  (none / 0) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 09:41:28 AM MDT

    stating is that there were a lot of complaints on the number of debates initially. When that subsided it was the timing. Are we learning anything from the debates?

     I know there is that perception in some quarters. However Obama is the one that put DWS at the DNC not Hillary.


    And now you want to change the subject with your last sentence.

    Apparently it's not difficult for you to ignore everything everyone says and slide over into yet another irrelevancy.


    Parent

    I'll tell you another reason why this is bad (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:37:58 AM EST
    Hillary needs practice and exposure.  She has not done this in a while.  She said a few things the other night that were, well, clumsy.  We don't want her to be clumsy.

    Do you remember the first Obama/Romney debate when he got his ass handed to him because he was unprepared?

    Also, I don't understand the logic.  Hillary is very good at these things.   She wins every debate going away.  ragebot not withstanding.  But the primary debates are amature hour.   They are the warmup.  

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#112)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:48:39 AM EST
    she is good at them. I could make the argument that the timing could actually help Bernie instead of Hillary based on that data point.

    Parent
    You could make that argument (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:50:42 AM EST
    Because no one on earth would believe that was the intention.  

    Parent
    Okay. (none / 0) (#119)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:57:59 AM EST
    What is the intention? To hide all the candidates?

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#121)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:00:48 AM EST
    It is.  O'Malley has been screaming this for months.  Fortunately no one paid much attention.  Now he is being joined by Sanders supporters and much of the media.

    Parent
    The irony (none / 0) (#122)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:03:42 AM EST
    is though that the debates are not helping either one of them it seems. Events seem to be driving what is happening in the primaries more than debates.

    Parent
    The irony (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:09:29 AM EST
    Is that on top of all just being discussed, which is water under the bridge, DWSs ham handed handing of "Sandersgate" is bringing focus to the whole mess and making it way worse.


    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#127)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:14:25 AM EST
    there's a prime time debate in Charleston on January 17th. So maybe that will resolve some of this.

    Parent
    Right (5.00 / 5) (#128)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:17:45 AM EST
    A "prime time debate"

    On Sunday night.  Which is the only worse night of the week than Saturday.

    I'm done.

    Parent

    What do you think would be a good number? (none / 0) (#116)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:52:28 AM EST
    In 2008, the Democrats had 26 debates before and during the primary season, which waaaaayyyyyy too many.  This time we have 6.  Maybe 12?

    I hate the debates, because let's face it - they aren't real debates - they're the worst if reality shows.  We don't get lots of understanding about plans and such - we get polished talking points, dtana (Hilkary came back late!) and we get the fact checks afterwards.  They are media circuses.

    They need neutral moderators who will follow up and fact check on the spot.  And they really should have NO audience.  That's the worst part - it's like watching WWE.  Ugh.

    Parent

    With the both of you (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:55:02 AM EST
    I hope someone is investing in straw futures.

    I didn't say there should be more debates.

    Parent

    I was just asking your opinion (none / 0) (#120)
    by jbindc on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 10:59:21 AM EST
    Because yes, many have complained about the number - including Sanders and O'Malley.

    So, I guess your snippy answer is six.

    Thanks.

    Parent

    6 (none / 0) (#123)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 11:03:54 AM EST
    3

    The point I've been trying to make is what I think is not the point.   I'm not representative of a huge block of democratic voters who think they are being screwed.
    I will vote for Hillary.  They might not.

    Parent

    It's entirely possible that (5.00 / 3) (#134)
    by Anne on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 02:11:25 PM EST
    with only three contenders, six debates would be enough, if those debates were scheduled during the week, in prime time, not right before or right after a holiday, to maximize the number of people who might tune in.  Saturday night before Christmas and the Sunday night before the MLK, Jr. holiday are not prime viewing times.

    But not only were debates scheduled at times when not many people would be watching, the candidates were threatened with exclusion from DNC-sanctioned debates, if they accepted any invitations to debate outside the DNC.  So if Clinton and Sanders wanted to do a town hall debate in South Carolina at the invitation of the SC Democratic Party - or any other organization - the DNC would exclude them from any future DNC-sanctioned debates.

    Apparently, in 2008, the candidates debated in non-DNC debates, and this was seen as allowing the process to get out of control.

    Seems like it isn't so much that the process gets out of control, but that the DNC isn't the one controlling it.  Personally, I'd like the DNC to stop fking with the process and allow the candidates and the people the opportunity to drive the process.

    Parent

    That's (none / 0) (#136)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 02:17:52 PM EST
    IMO the biggest mistake. If the three candidates wanted to another debate they can't.

    Parent
    You may very well have a point (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 07:54:49 PM EST
    George is not the only one.  I usually watch the DVRed morning Joe, or hi lights, while on the stair-master.  I have noticed a real shift in the coverage.  It's gone from amusement to concern to alarm.  The last conversation I saw was about Putin and Donald's praise of him.   Even Joe Scarborough could not conceal his revulsion and , well, alarm that he would not be deterred from praise of him even when confronted with who and what he is.  They will continue to let Donald call in.   And I'm not sure that's a bad thing,  I think the more people who know what he is the better.

    I believe you are correct.  They are beginning to understand  that Trump could not only win the nomination but possibly even the general if he is not taken very very seriously.   IMO that means Hillary.   And I think possibly in theirs.

    Parent

    Also (none / 0) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 07:59:28 PM EST
    I think it's possible some would really like to see a Hillary/Trump fight.  I have to admit to that myself.  During the debate when she was shouting over both men and the moderators I was imagining her and Trump on the stage going at it.

    It would be something to see.

    Parent

    I find (none / 0) (#59)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:35:43 PM EST
    it kind of ironic that now that Donald does it it's revulsion but when Victor David and Hanson and Sarah Palin wrote love letters to Putin there was nary a peep from the usual suspects.

    To me this is the most annoying thing about the GOP primary. Trump is getting all the guff when the rest of them are just as bad. I guess it's probably because he's the front runner but what if he doesn't win the primary? Are voters going to hear anything about the other candidates?

    Parent

    Did Putin very publicly praise them? (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:53:14 PM EST
    Don't know what you are referring to so I'm asking.  I think this is different.  I think Donald is different.  I don't think he is just like the rest.  He may be saying out loud versions of what they think but IMO the very fact they know better than to say it out loud makes him different.  Donald is not a joke.  He is dangerous.  IMO a good deal more dangerous than any of the others except possibly Cruz.  Even republicans understand this.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#66)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:59:17 PM EST
    it is different in that respect that Putin actually commented.

    But here is an article talking about the conservative crush on Putin.

    Parent

    Conservatives love bullies (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by shoephone on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:04:53 PM EST
    Putin, Trump, whomever, as long as it's a swaggering, bigoted bully, they'll praise him (or her).

    I think, in reality, Putin doesn't give two hoots about Trump. He's just trolling Obama and the Dems with his comment.

    Parent

    Probably (none / 0) (#79)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:14:22 PM EST
    Maybe he a little scared of hm too Donald being completely insane and all.  And wants to hurt his chances.

    Ur guess as good as mine.

    Parent

    Quite aware of the (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:06:12 PM EST
    Conservative boner for authority figures.  And recently it's been mostly as a way to tweet the president.    I have never heard any talk about Putin in the terms Donald does.   Neither had Joe Sarbirough I think.

    Parent
    I know you meant "tweak" (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by shoephone on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:25:00 PM EST
    but "tweet" made me laugh...the idea of Putin tweeting about Trump. Of course, I don't doubt that Trump is tweeting madly about Putie...

    Parent
    Here is a post that tries and (none / 0) (#77)
    by MO Blue on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:11:47 PM EST
    break down what Putin actually said. It contradicts somewhat the initial translation. Link

    There is more on subject in comments.

    Parent

    I've seen some of the discussion (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:17:22 PM EST
    Of the translation.  I guess IMO the bottom line he's talking about hm.  Not Ted.  Not Jeb.  Not Marco.

    It's just a little weird I think.

    Parent

    Well, actually... (none / 0) (#62)
    by sj on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:51:40 PM EST
    If you think there is anything the media would love more than an actual contested dem primary I believe you are mistaken.
    I can think of a couple of other things they would love more.

    They would love be free from even the hint that there would be any effort to break up their conglomerates.

    They would love to be assured that all social benefits go to the moneyed classes.

    That is just two things they would love more.


    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#65)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:55:48 PM EST
    If you are talking about the entire MSN that is a rather sweeping statement.  

    Is the point Hillary would enable these things?

    Parent

    The statement was (none / 0) (#69)
    by sj on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:04:41 PM EST
    no more sweeping than yours. :)

    My question to you: where has Hillary given any indication that she would present a danger to those interests?

    Parent

    I'm confused (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:11:16 PM EST
    Is this the same person who left this blog and started a Hillary newsgroup 8 years ago because it was not pro Hillary enough?    I guess my question is if that's how you feel what was that about?

    I honestly think the question is ridiculous.  

    Parent

    You ARE confused (none / 0) (#86)
    by sj on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:36:07 PM EST
    If you are talking about me here:
    I'm confused (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:11:16 PM MDT

    Is this the same person who left this blog and started a Hillary newsgroup 8 years ago because it was not pro Hillary enough?

    And what question do you think is ridiculous, exactly? You may have read bellicosity in my question when there was none.

    I thought my question was pretty specific. I still think so. Where has HRC indicated that she would put effort into breaking up the media conglomerates? If she has such statements that would make me look at her more positively. Frankly, I haven't heard any politician talk about it since they took down Howard Dean with the manufactured Dean Scream.

    I was talking about what "the media" might like more than a contested primary. That was the beginning and the end of my point, such as it was.

    You are the one who brought a candidate into those alternative ideas. I mentioned no one. I was thinking of how Clear Channel -- excuse me "iHeartMedia" -- ruined radio and Scripps ruined HGTV. Also how MSNBC fired Phil Donahue -- their highest rated program.


    Parent

    So (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 10:14:29 PM EST
    What was "the sisterhood of the traveling pantsuits"

    Exactly?  As I remember it, it was several alums of this blog that were unhappy with the support of Obama.  And I'm really pretty sure you were there.  And that was after Howard Dean.

    You are the one who posed the question about Hillary.  I just don't remember her stances on the media and Wall Street being a big problem at the time for you or anyone else.   In fact I don't remember it being discussed.

    Look, you can support whoever you want.  But you supported Hillary once.  So did I.

    I still do.

    Parent

    Jeebus. (none / 0) (#138)
    by sj on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 04:26:24 PM EST
    Yes, I posted the question about Hillary after you introduced this non-sequitur.
    Is the point Hillary would enable these things?
    I asked the question because I thought you might have some data. Apparently you don't. Apparently you are just feeling feisty.

    I, however, am not. So carry on worrying that bone if you want. I'm not giving you my leg as food.

    Parent

    To be fair (none / 0) (#148)
    by jbindc on Tue Dec 22, 2015 at 08:23:32 AM EST
    You may have read bellicosity in my question when there was none.

    Maybe because you've been bellicose with just about everyone you've engaged with on this thread.  Oculus, Capt, Donald, Yman, GA6th, and of course (and almost always) me. You are much more genial with a few commenters, but sometimes it isn't a stretch to read "tone" (usually disdain) in many of your comments, so people might automatically react to that.

    Flame away.

    Parent

    Point taken. To be fair, however... (none / 0) (#155)
    by sj on Tue Dec 22, 2015 at 08:15:09 PM EST
    ... every commenter you mentioned is, on this thread, demonstrably -- if sometimes cryptically -- bellicose themselves -- including (almost always) you.

    So there's that.

    Parent

    Rage, Sounds like (none / 0) (#94)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 01:17:50 AM EST
    a blurb from a conservative blogger bemoaning Hillary's lead in the polls against Bernie.

    Focus groups and online polls?

    I thought Hillary was just more impressive.  Detailed knowledge on a lot of things.

    Parent

    Alternet (none / 0) (#132)
    by ragebot on Mon Dec 21, 2015 at 01:54:46 PM EST
    seems much more like a very liberal site than a conservative one.  It seems like somehow my post was a reply to a thread where I posted this link.

    I get the impression Alternet is more of a Sanders supporter and like a few posters here think Sanders is getting the short end of the stick.

    My personal view is that what the MSM tries to pass off as debates are nothing of the kind.  I was one of the better debaters on my high school debate team and had a debate scholarship as an  undergrad.  One debate still stands out in my mind.  It was the preliminary rounds Dade County Junior Varsity Debate Champion ship and the only debate my partner and I lost.  Both of us were shocked at the loss till our coach pointed out the judge in the debate had the same last name as one of the opposing debaters; turns out it was the mother of one of the team members.

    There are clear rules governing what I consider a debate and nothing I have seen on TV comes close.  On the other hand I do think they serve some purpose in putting the candidates in the spotlight and seeing how they react.  But as for picking a winner, I would bet if you took a poll before and after the debate on who the winner was there would not be much difference in the results.

    Parent

    Bernie is not doing this well (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:40:56 PM EST


    Ok (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:41:40 PM EST
    Better

    Parent
    Hillary was pitch perfect (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:43:01 PM EST
    OMalley is a jackass

    Parent
    He was a jackass. (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by caseyOR on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:48:29 PM EST
    I want to like O'Malley, but I don't. I understand that he is scrabbling to find purchase in this campaign, looking for something, anything, to get a bump in the polls.

    We are less than ten minutes into this debate and O'Malley sounds like Guiliani, using "San Bernadino" in place of "9/11". Not a winner for me.

    Parent

    On the other hand.. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 09:40:34 PM EST
    Please.

    Hillary's cushy relationship with the Goldman Saches of the world shouldn't be an excuse to distract and exploit the memory of the brave and selfless folks who puts themselves on the line after 9/11 in order to avoid answering tough questions.

    Parent

    O'Malley puts me to sleep (none / 0) (#18)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 09:45:57 PM EST
    Sounds like a politician with soundbites.

    Parent
    Hillary and Bernie (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by jondee on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 09:58:41 PM EST
    by not bickering about data bases, sabotaged O'Malley's obviously rehearsed statement about "rising above the bickering back-and-forth"..

    Parent
    readign about the breach I sure did not (none / 0) (#6)
    by ruffian on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:42:02 PM EST
    get the impression the data just mysteriously appeared on the staffers computers....

    It's a Christmas miracle! (none / 0) (#8)
    by jbindc on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:47:04 PM EST
    Ha! Glad to move on to things that matter more (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by ruffian on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:50:10 PM EST
    but still...pants are afire...

    Parent
    Bernies answers (none / 0) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 07:52:20 PM EST
    Left a bit to be desired IMO

    Parent
    Yeah...not sure he has all the info (none / 0) (#12)
    by ruffian on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 08:00:21 PM EST
    They were all smart to just make it go away.

    Parent
    Muir and Raddatz are not (none / 0) (#14)
    by caseyOR on Sat Dec 19, 2015 at 09:05:28 PM EST
    running this show. Candidates are frequently ignoring the pleas of the moderators.

    May (none / 0) (#25)
    by lentinel on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 10:10:48 AM EST
    the farce be with us.

    Who won the debate (none / 0) (#32)
    by ragebot on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 03:35:53 PM EST
    Depends on who you ask as this link shows.

    The MSM almost universally said Clinton was the winner.  On the other hand all the polls and focus groups any one could link to said Sanders won.

    It is fairly obvious to most folks here I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I have noticed there is a clear majority here that support Clinton over Sanders.

    So can some of you experienced political pros explain why the MSM seems in the tank for Clinton while there seems to be so much more public support for Sanders.

    First (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 07:15:36 PM EST
    of all online polls mean zip. And who knows how they select people for focus groups.

    The Sanders supporters spend all evening doing online polls.

    Parent

    Oy (none / 0) (#64)
    by sj on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:55:37 PM EST
    You just can't help yourself.

    Parent
    Do you (none / 0) (#67)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:02:44 PM EST
    really want to promote online polls from places like the Drudge Report?

    Parent
    You can't do your usual trick (none / 0) (#78)
    by sj on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:13:38 PM EST
    of pretending you said something that you didn't. What you actually said was this:
    The Sanders supporters spend all evening doing online polls.
    I myself said nothing about the mostly useless online polls so this comment from you:
    Do you  (none / 0) (#67)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 08:02:44 PM MDT

    really want to promote online polls from places like the Drudge Report?

    references neither your own comment nor mine.

    What are you so afraid of, that you find yourself unable to stick with the truth?

    You oscillate between predictably boring and increasingly unhinged.

    Parent

    Places (none / 0) (#84)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:19:19 PM EST
    like Dkos put up links to the polls and then swarms go over to the link and vote. It's no secret. I even used to be part of the swarm for online polls. I mean Bernie won the Time person of the year poll with their online poll. It used to be called "freeping" a poll. None of the online polls ever seem to be the same as a scientific poll. But apparently pointing that out seems to create some sort of rage.

    Parent
    Rage? (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by sj on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 09:41:45 PM EST
    None of the online polls ever seem to be the same as a scientific poll. But apparently pointing that out seems to create some sort of rage.
    Okay, now you're really swinging over into unhinged. I don't know of a single thinking person who is unaware that online polls are unscientific.

    And while DKos is huge, "they" are hardly the epitome of any candidate's supporters. Yet you consistently use them to draw a broad brush on any candidate you do not support. You malign supporters to undermine their candidate. It's kind of ugly, really.

    Parent

    Enthusiasm (none / 0) (#39)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Dec 20, 2015 at 05:49:54 PM EST
    Establishment candidate versus the grass roots candidate.

    The grass roots candidate has more enthusiastic supporters, perhaps not more supporters


    Parent