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Occupying Earth: City by City

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 07:06:57 PM EST
Tags: OWS (all tags)
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Thousands crossed the Brooklyn Bridge tonight, as union workers joined the OWS protesters. NYPD arrested hundreds today, it's a scene that is replaying all across the country.

  • Good photos here
  • Photos of New York Arrests here
  • Live cam (thankfully no sound) at Brooklyn Bridge here.
  • Listen to NYPD Special Operations Division and Traffic Scanner live here
  • Follow arrests at #OccupyArrests.

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    Occupying Earth: City by City | 102 comments (102 topical)

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    Very proud of our 29-yr old grad student (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by Peter G on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 08:05:13 PM EST
    daughter, who joined the protest in NYC today (her second time), while several of her friends said they wanted to but were afraid of being arrested.  We're pretty sure she was not one of those arrested, however.

    This is really nice to hear, Peter (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 08:18:13 PM EST
    I imagine the percentage of parents who are telling their sons and daughters "I don't want you going down there - you might get arrested" is very high... still.

    Parent
    Well, she knows very well that beginning in 1966 (5.00 / 3) (#7)
    by Peter G on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 09:19:58 PM EST
    when I was 17, and continuing until at least 1974, I vigiled, marched, and otherwise demonstrated against the War in Vietnam.  She knows I took some risks then (and at other times in my life), because it was the right thing to do.  As it happened, I never was arrested, although I certainly might have been.  (Once, FBI agents arrested a federal fugitive from a draft resistance indictment as we walked arm in arm across a Philadelphia street to a demo.  I could easily have picked up a harboring charge that time - a federal felony.  Fortunately for me, they just pushed me aside and whisked him away.  [He's a labor lawyer in D.C. now, btw.]) As a student newspaper editor in 1971, I published stolen FBI Cointelpro documents. My wife, her mother, has similar stories.  Would be kind of hypocritical of us to say not to respond to the call of her conscience and not to join in her generation's cause (their leadership, anyway), wouldn't it?

    Parent
    Thanks, Abbie (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 09:31:49 PM EST
    For being you. ;-)

    Parent
    many talk the talk (5.00 / 6) (#5)
    by NYShooter on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 09:18:13 PM EST
    your daughter walks the walk

    How (justifiably) proud you must be.

    Parent

    Good for her (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 03:10:10 AM EST
    Tell her that I said thank you.  I'm tied down in Alabama.  She's out there fighting for me and I deeply appreciate it.  I did see a yard sign here taking my son to school that said We Are the 99%.  Pretty unusual for where I am.  The idea is getting out

    Parent
    Thousands in the streets of Portland (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by caseyOR on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 09:18:14 PM EST
    today. Marched over the Steel Bridge, rallied with unions, marched to big banks (Chase, BoA, Wells Fargo) to protest. Particular issue at Wells Fargo was WF's investment in the private prison industry. Occupy called for WF to divest itself of all holdings and stop lending to private prison companies.

    Police out in full force dressed in riot gear. Many arrests, pepper spray used.

    Portland's police chief, who plans to run for mayor next year, is now telling the media that the need to police Occupy protests is such a drain on police resources that other criminal activity is being neglected. Today's sad story is a rape victim who had to wait hours before a cop could take her statement because every cop was busy with the protesters. The other the sad story was about how the gang unit couldn't stop gang killings because of the Occupy protesters.

    Of course, the local media is reporting this as if it is gospel. I have yet to hear a reporter question this in any way. When asked to comment, some Occupy people pointed out that the chief decides how to deploy the cops, not Occupy, and that if the chief wants these other crimes to be investigated he can assign cops to investigate. Occupiers are not engaging rioting and rampaging in the streets. They are not breaking windows and terrorizing citizens. They make a point of not blocking the buses and light rail trains so as not to hold up commuters.

    Reporters are falling all over themselves to tell us how expensive all this is. And they all make the sad, sad statement that it is the 99% who will pay for all this police overtime.

    Although I am glad that Portland police have not banned the media, we are getting live coverage for hours on end, I do wish they would actually investigate things and not take what the police chief and the politicians say at face value.  Edward R.Murrow must be crying in the grave.

    Same here re local news talking about all the (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by DFLer on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:20:05 AM EST
    money spent by police etc. Frosts my @#%$!

    Parent
    The loneliness of Leadership (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by NYShooter on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 09:25:26 PM EST
    Muggings, rapes, and murders over there

    Peaceful demonstrators exercising their 1'st amendment rights here

    What to do, what to do

    A corporate police state (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by DFLer on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:25:45 AM EST
    will always choose protecting property over protecting people.

    (earlier post incomplete - duh!)

    Parent

    In DC (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by koshembos on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 02:32:14 AM EST
    We are lucky to live in metropolitan DC, the black majority and controlled city, that knows oppression when it sees it. OWS is quite free to express itself here. No tugs, no 1% hoodlum mayors and no invisible Fed hand to cause human and civil right violations like in other big cities.

    Brace yourself, live fire is just around the corner; that is what happens when instead of negotiation you use military force.

    Yman, jim...Yman, jim... (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:49:20 PM EST
    Yman, jim...

    I thought the back and forth between me and ABG was bad, but you guys need to get your own room.

    If what I have seen on TV (2.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 10:56:34 PM EST
    represents where the country is going I am glad that I am 73....

    and sad that my Grandson is facing this.

    Know what?

    This is all smoke and mirrors. The Occupy Whatever is now proving that it hates the workers and is self destructing.

    You wish. (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by shoephone on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 11:08:10 PM EST


    Parent
    You may be 73, (5.00 / 4) (#12)
    by NYShooter on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 11:35:34 PM EST
    but, its not too late to seek help

    Reach out, and good luck

    Parent

    OMG Jim....really? (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 03:12:56 AM EST
    Democracy is terrifying?  How exactly are they hating the workers?  Remember Poland?

    Parent
    Easy solution (none / 0) (#17)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:25:18 AM EST
    Stop watching Tea Party rallies on TV.

    Parent
    Democracy is not (3.50 / 2) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:31:33 AM EST
    seizing the streets and keeping others from going about their business.

    Your free speech rights end when they interfere with the rights of others.

    Yman, you can spout nonsense about the Tea Party all you want but Joe and Jane Sixpack have watched TV and know better. Support for these whiny three year olds in 20 something bodies by the public is disappearing like the dew disappears when the sunshine hits it.

    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:56:25 AM EST
    seizing the streets and keeping others from going about their business

    Your free speech rights end when they interfere with the rights of others.

    It's the end of the line for idiots like bloomberg and quan and the other mayors sending goon squads out to attack Americans, and for all the cops attacking protesters all over the country, and for anyone else supporting seizing the streets and keeping others from going about their business and interfering with their rights.

    "My administration has been closely monitoring the situation... and I know that we will be learning more tomorrow when day breaks. As the situation continues to unfold, our first concern is preventing injury or loss of life. So I want to be very clear in calling upon the ... authorities to refrain from any violence against peaceful protesters.

    The people ... have rights that are universal. That includes the right to peaceful assembly and association, the right to free speech, and the ability to determine their own destiny. These are human rights. And the United States will stand up for them everywhere."

    --Barack Obama



    Parent
    BTW - Tea Partiers praising OWS (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 10:37:44 AM EST
    Just for you, Jim ... Tea partiers meeting with (and praising!) OWS Memphis!

    It sounds to me that y'all ought to be joining us," said Jerry Rains, a 64-year-old computer programmer and tea party member. "You have a lot of the same goals we have, which is to take our country back."

    Pope and fellow Occupy Memphis protester Tristan Tran had a lively, sometimes strained and confrontational, but mostly civil discussion with members of the Mid-South Tea Party at a municipal meeting hall outside Memphis.

    The factions saw eye-to-eye on some issues and clashed on others. And, while the young speakers didn't change many minds, they did earn praise from the tea party members for their passion, honesty and courage.

    Heeeeeeeeeey ... isn't that your hometown?

    Heh.

    Parent

    I smell solidarity (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 10:54:32 AM EST
    Not teen spirit :)

    Parent
    Uh, no one besides the Left side of the (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 04:28:30 PM EST
    Democratic Party believe that. (And I suspect that even they and you know that's not true.)

    And I doubt that Jerry Rains is a Tea Party member.

    Perhaps you can tell us what group he is a member of?????????

    But he does have a point in that Tea Party people are very disgusted with Wall Street and crony capitalism. It's just that Tea Party people don't crap on police cars and harass school children.

    And no. Memphis is not my home town. It wasn't even Presley's home town.

    Parent

    Really, Jim? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 06:54:07 PM EST
    You have some evidence that it didn't happen - because the Tea Partiers are quoted by several reporters.  Do you have some evidence that Jerry Rains, a self-identified member of the TP attending a Tea Party event, is not a Tea Partier?

    OTOH - I guess it is easier just to make $hit up.  But what was it that someone once said?  Oh, yeah:


    First, you really need to post some links re your claims. Without them they just are claims.

    Heh.

    Parent

    I didn't say it didn't happen (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:09:18 PM EST
    I said I doubted it.

    Big difference.

    Anyway, maybe he is. I've reached out to some folks. Maybe they know.

    But we do know for sure that Bill Ayers engaged in terrorist acts. In fact, he has said he wished he had done more.

    Parent

    That's great for Bill Ayers (none / 0) (#76)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:42:59 PM EST
    Maybe someone else cares.

    Parent
    I contacted some local folks (none / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 09:39:39 AM EST
     
    The Mid-South Tea Party does some strange things. I know the leadership and keep arms length. They have split twice over the last couple of years because of doing very odd things. The Tea Party is very fragmented. (Our) Tea Party Coalition is one exception. Any action requires unanimous consent of two representatives from each of the 10 member groups. This keeps us on solid ground with our efforts. We are trying to encourage coalitions by congressional district.


    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#103)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 20, 2011 at 08:15:44 AM EST
    The Mid-South Tea Party does some strange things.

    Really?  I'm shocked.

    Heh.

    Parent

    Watching TV... (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 12:45:56 PM EST
    is Joe and Jane Sixpack's first and worst mistake...its no place to get fair and balanced reporting of the protest movement.

    With so many Occupy factions from coast to coast, there is no excuse not to get off the sofa and get the straight dope, instead of getting them from the corporate propaganda arms.

    Parent

    kdog (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 04:32:02 PM EST
    The more people know about OWS the more they will turn away in disgust.

    Parent
    Like they did with ... (none / 0) (#42)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 06:59:08 PM EST
    .... the Tea Party?

    Parent
    Disgust trumps (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:16:32 PM EST
    boredom.

    If all you can do is attack the Tea Party as a way to support the overreaches of the Occupiers you have no argument that can succeed.

    That is, the Tea Party isn't blocking traffic, frightening children.....

    ;-)

    Parent

    C'mon Jim - you TPers aren't "boring" (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:26:56 PM EST
    Give yourselves a little credit.

    Stomping on women's heads ...

    Raging and threatening violence at TP rallies ...

    Threatening to use guns to stop HCR ...

    Condoning the murder of homosexuals ...

    "Boring" is the least of the issues you TPers have, Jim.

    Parent

    All you are doing is proving my point (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:51:25 PM EST
    You can't defend the Occupiers actions so you dredge up some anecdotal stuff.

    You have no defense for what they are doing.

    Parent

    "Anectdotal stuff" - heh (none / 0) (#61)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:53:49 PM EST
    Funny, how you claim that an isolated incident involving OWS is representative of the movement, while claiming the crazy TPers are just "anectdotal".

    Heh.

    Parent

    The Tea Party aint on the 6 o'clock (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:55:32 PM EST
    news... The Occupiers are.

    Now. If you can not defend their actions, that's okay. I don't know anyone who can.

    Parent

    I don't need to ... (none / 0) (#65)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:01:28 PM EST
    ... "defend" anyone to point out the hypocrisy in your claims.

    Parent
    You dispute my claim (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:12:19 PM EST
    that the Occupiers have acted in a manner that is self destructive.

    Yet all you want to do is dis the Tea Party.

    Got facts?

    lol

    Parent

    I dispute your claim ... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:15:05 PM EST
    ... that a few, isolated incidents are representative of the OWS movement.

    But since you like to attack the entire movement for the actions of a few, I figure what's good for the Tea Party goose.

    Suddenly, those TPers are "anectdotal".

    Heh.

    Parent

    So you cannot make your point. (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:18:07 PM EST
    OK.

    Parent
    My "point" ... (none / 0) (#75)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:39:27 PM EST
    ... is your hypocrisy.

    I just made it.

    Parent

    Oh, really? (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:18:17 PM EST
    The issue at hand was you disputing my comment re the Ocuppiers getting bad publicity.

    You retorted that the Tea Party is bad.

    Your response has nothing to do with my point.

    Hypocrite?? lol

    Face it. You can't debate.

    Parent

    Look again - read slooooowly (none / 0) (#84)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:29:14 PM EST
    Your post that I responded to was claiming that the "more people know about OWS", the more they would be "disgusted".

    I pointed out that support for the Tea party has dropped drastically once people knew more about them.

    Then you claimed the Tea Party is "blocking traffic" or "frightening children".

    I showed you TP members threatening violence, endorsing the murder of homosexuals, and stomping on a woman.

    Then you claimed those Tea Parties were merely "anectdotal".

    I pointed out your double standard - condemning the entire OWS movement for a few, isolated incidents, while excusing the TP incidents as "anectdotal".

    Yeah, ... your hypocrisy.

    Parent

    Almost as fast as ... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 10:27:19 AM EST
    ... support has been dying for the whiny infants in 70-something bodies.

    "Dying" .... heh.

    ... wasn't even working for that one ....

    Parent

    Poland...Poland....Poland.....Poland (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 10:52:49 AM EST


    Parent
    Not to mention ... (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 11:03:45 AM EST
    ... Gandhi's campaigns for independence from the British Empire, Czechoslovakia's Velvet Revolution, apartheid in South Africa, the Civil Rights Movement in the U.S., the "Singing" Revolution in the Baltic and the Orange Revolution in Ukraine, and Jim's favorite ...

    ... the Boston Tea Party.

    Parent

    Stunning, isn't it? (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by shoephone on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 11:48:22 AM EST
    The people whining and complaining about OWS would have been those colonists siding with the British in 1775...

    Parent
    oh yea (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by CST on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 12:35:23 PM EST
    one thing people often forget is that the Boston Tea Partiers were not exactly popular in their day either.  In fact, the majority of people did not support them, because they destroyed property and the response from the british was incredibly harsh.

    It was the British response that made people a) mad at the tea party but b) even madder at the British.  Their overreach is what eventually brought some of the other colonies/Bostonians on board because it was unnecessarily harsh.

    The cops maybe should learn a thing or two from that.

    Parent

    The OWS (1.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 04:30:36 PM EST
    is now trying to overthrow the US government???

    Well, we do know that avowed terrorist Bill Ayers has been lecturing them.

    Thanks for telling us.

    Think maybe the FBI has noticed?

    Parent

    Link? (none / 0) (#35)
    by nycstray on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 05:48:38 PM EST
    Well, we do know that avowed terrorist Bill Ayers has been lecturing them.


    Parent
    Google is your friend (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 06:38:34 PM EST


    Parent
    Apparently, ... (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 06:55:25 PM EST
    ... it's not yours.

    Parent
    I get tired of providing a link (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:10:32 PM EST
    when a simple Google request will provide the answer.

    IMO he was snarking.

    I do provide links that do things like supporting the fact that gasoline prices went up while the economy crashed and then went down when regulations were removed and then up when the regulations were brought back.

    ;-)

    Parent

    But not a SINGLE link ... (none / 0) (#46)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:14:59 PM EST
    ... to support your fairy tale that Bush caused gas prices to fall when he lifted the drilling moratorium.  Then again, ...

    ... there's a reason for that.

    Parent

    Your reason is (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:23:04 PM EST
    that you are not interested in facts. You just want to drink the koolaid and snark.

    You wanna debate?

    If gasoline prices are determined by the economy reducing demand....

    Tell us why prices went up as the economy tanked in 2007/08... then went down when Bush and Congress removed the bans.... and then went back up and remain up when Obama brought the bans back???

    Yman, you got some "splaining" to do.

    Parent

    No, I don't (none / 0) (#70)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:12:11 PM EST
    Jim - you keep making this silly claim (that oil prices dropped due to Bush's lifting of the moratorium), without a single study or expert to support your silly claim.  I've already posted several of them (including those that support the lifting of the moratorium), all of whom note your claim is ridiculous.  But I'll tell ya what I'll do...

    ... for every link to a study or expert you provide that supports your fairy tale*, I'll provide you with five that provide the real reason.

    Start with just one link ... don't want you to strain yourself.

    (* an actual expert in the field of oil/energy pricing, not some reporter from Fox or WND).

    Parent

    And if you don't like Google (none / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:02:41 PM EST
    Hannity just had it on TV!

    lol

    Parent

    They offer remedial ... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 06:57:26 PM EST
    ... reading courses at the learning Annex.

    Think about it.

    Parent

    Stop it! Yman (none / 0) (#43)
    by NYShooter on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:01:00 PM EST
    Please, you're killing me

    lol:)

    Parent

    Neither of you can debate (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:12:55 PM EST
    As an old timer in actual age, and as an old timer on this blog, I am embarrassed at the quality you newbies bring to the game.

    Your side use to have some people who could really make people think.

    Sad that they are gone.

    Parent

    You should be embarassed (none / 0) (#48)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:17:11 PM EST
    Just not for the reason you claim.

    Parent
    Quit proving my point that you (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:24:23 PM EST
    can't debate and answer my point re  gasoline prices?

    I can hardly wait for your answer.

    Parent

    Quit proving my point that you (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:24:24 PM EST
    can't debate and answer my point re  gasoline prices?

    I can hardly wait for your answer.

    Parent

    I've already answered it many times (none / 0) (#55)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:30:20 PM EST
    You just don't like answers that are supported by studies and experts in the field, rather than silly winger fairy tales supported by ...

    ... nothing.

    Parent

    No you have not. (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:46:11 PM EST
    Your claim is that the economy drives gasoline prices.

    My link shows that to be not true.

    Here it is again.

    You can run but you can explain.

    lol

    Parent

    and those are not stuidies by experts (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:47:30 PM EST
    they are historical facts.

    Economy was tanking.... prices went sky high!

    Parent

    As someone (none / 0) (#64)
    by NYShooter on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:59:13 PM EST
    who knows a little something about the economy, certainly more than you, I beg you to stop with this nonsense Re: oil prices.

    You really ware embarrassing yourself.


    Parent

    If you know so much (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:06:03 PM EST
    State your point. Claims of expertise just doesn't cut it.

    Parent
    I take it your point is (none / 0) (#77)
    by NYShooter on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:43:55 PM EST
    That "regulations" is the primary factor that sets international oil, and therefore, gas prices.

    To use one of your shopworn terms, that's "risible."

    The oil industry (and its lobbies) is, by far, the largest, and most powerful, industrial subset on earth.  The oil complex is undeniably a monopoly consisting of numerous smaller monopolies, such as OPEC. The global distribution system is a symbiotic mechanism consisting of fungible relationships guaranteeing the unfettered flow of oil. (If one country, usually for domestic political consumption, refuses to buy, or sell, oil to another they simply re-route the oil through third parties.

    The industry is so large, and complex, that government officials admit that "regulating" it is virtually impossible. Combined with their financially bottomless lobbies, their reach into Congress goes beyond "influential," to "captured."
    "Regulations" are an inside industry joke, as  whatever pablum is presented by politicians as "regulations" were first approved by, and most likely written by, the industry itself.

    Supply and demand, and/or expectations for supply and demand, are, for all intents and purposes, the only (external) factors that affect the pricing of oil.

    Monopolistic practices consisting of international corrupt, cooperative  pricing arrangements are always available when Nature, or economics, intrude on Big Oil's profit stream.

    Industry lobbyists have more jokes about "regulations" then Henny Youngman had about his wife.

    Give up the ghost, Jim.


    Parent

    Thanks for proving my point (none / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 09:41:45 AM EST
    that gasoline prices are no reflective of the economy.

    Parent
    Seriously, get help n/t (none / 0) (#97)
    by NYShooter on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 10:22:53 AM EST


    Parent
    Seriously. Pay attention to my point. (none / 0) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 12:21:46 PM EST

    It isn't demand that is driving prices but government regulations. And I never claimed the government was regulating the oil industry.  You either have not paid attention to what I have written or you are trying to establish a straw horse.

    I do claim, as my comments and links show, that imposing bans by regulations on drilling, impact the expectation of more/less oil. And you agreed.

    "or expectations for supply and demand,"

    So outside of some desire to just disagree because we may disagree on some other issues  I can't fathom your comments.


    Parent

    O.K. I'll try one more time (none / 0) (#100)
    by NYShooter on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 04:25:28 PM EST
    But, unfortunately, IMO, you've shown that you're not here to discuss (or "debate") the issues, you're here to spar.

    Again and again, I, and others have spoken to you, with every bit of supportive evidence possible, and, instead of reading the response, mulling it over, even once in a while saying something like, "hmm, maybe you've got a point there, that's interesting, let me look into it." No, you brush right past all the facts, statements, views, and positions to find a word, or phrase, that you can take off on, distorting it beyond recognition. That's what's so frustrating, and that's why people have been reduced to simply mocking and toying with you. Do you know how disrespectful it is to brush right over carefully thought out answers to you, just so you can find a zinger to toss back?

    Everything you just asked here, I..have..answered. Please read, comprehend, analyze, and respond like a grown up who genuinely wants a dialogue.

    You'd be surprised how quickly the snarks would disappear, and those honest "debates" you keep talking about would suddenly, like magic, appear.

    Really.


    Parent

    No. You came back bringing up government (none / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 05:46:09 PM EST
    regulating the oil industry, which I never claimed.

    And I hate to be redundant, but my point was that the ban being removed and then replaced by Obama, demonstrates that gasoline prices are not demand driven, but driven by what the market/speculators think the government will do to increase/decrease supply.

    That's it.

    Both you and Yman could have disagreed without the snarks. But, you didn't.

    Have a nice night.

    Parent

    Your link shows nothing ... (none / 0) (#62)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:55:09 PM EST
    ... except a chart of gas prices.

    Parent
    Uh, it also has a time line (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:01:51 PM EST
    And as I wrote previously.

    The economy was going down in late 2007 and into 2008.

    Yet the charts show gasoline prices going up. Hit all time highs in July 2008...

    Then in July/early August Bush signed the EO removing the off shore ban on drilling and Congress followed... and the price fell to $1.81 by the time Obama was sworn in.

    Then, within two weeks Obama brought back the bans and the price started to go back up even though the economy continued to tank and unemployment rose.

    That is a cause and effect triple!

    Parent

    Not even close (none / 0) (#74)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:37:12 PM EST
    The economy started to slow in late 2007, but it didn't fall into the toilet until the latter half of 2008.  That's when oil prices dropped.

    Parent
    That's not what (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:26:47 PM EST
    this chart of unemployment shows.

    Starting in late 2007 the figures started climbing and everyone was talking about the housing market and the Fed was cutting interest rates.

    And remember. Unemployment numbers are lagging indicators. They go up AFTER the economy drives employers to fire people.

    Plus, gasoline prices rose again starting 1/2009 after Obama announced the imposing of the old bans even though the economy was in the tank.

    Parent

    Rooster - sun (none / 0) (#85)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:32:00 PM EST
    Economic activity as a whole is measured by GDP - as are recessions and economic contractions.  I guess that's why you only want to look at unemployment numbers, as if that's not completely transparent.

    Heh.

    Parent

    For those of us who live in the (none / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:39:24 PM EST
    real world the state of the economy is defined by how many of us have jobs, the price of such energy components as gasoline and the value of our homes.

    You have lost the debate so now you cower and claim that I do not understand.

    That is truly, truly risible.

    Have a nice night.

    Parent

    "Risible" - heh (none / 0) (#87)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:56:51 PM EST
    What's "risible" is your attempt to use unemployment numbers rather than the universally accepted metric (i.e. GDP growth) to define economic growth, or lack thereof.

    Even using your silly metric, it's a complete fail.  Take a look at the unemployment numbers, Jim - they rise rapidly starting in mid 2008 - the same time the economy was slowing rapidly as measured by GDP - the metric everyone else in the real world use.  The US and world economy slows rapidly, demand falls, prices drop sharply - as anyone with any education in economics understands.

    Heh.

    Parent

    Heh - I just looked at your chart (none / 0) (#88)
    by Yman on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 10:07:27 PM EST
    The sharp increase in unemployment doesn't happen until mid-2008.

    Heh.

    Parent

    Oh really??? (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 08:06:32 AM EST
    Unemployment went from 4.7% in 9/07 t0 6.1% in 8/08.

    That's a big jump. And since you know so much, you know unemployment is a lagging indicator of the economy.

    At the same time gasoline went from about $2.75 to $4.12.

    If gasoline prices are driven by the economy then then gasoline prices should have been falling.

    Yet they did not.

    Bush and Congress removed the off shore ban in July/August 08 and the price of gasoline dropped to about $1.81 by the time Obama was sworn in.

    Now, as 2008 continued unemployment continued to climb. It hit around 7.8% in Jan 2008 and then rose to a high around 10% before falling back and holding around 9.1%. (Numbers counting drop outs and under employment are in the 17-18% range.)

    Now, if prices were controlled by the economy you would expect that gasoline prices would be in the $1.50 range.

    But starting in January 2008 when Obama brought the drilling bans back gasoline prices started a steady climb to above $4.00 a gallon in May 2011 before falling back to around $3.40... which is around a $1.60 increase from Jan 09.

    So the facts are that the price of gasoline, oil if you please, doesn't follow the unemployment numbers. Gasoline is inversely proportional.

    Gasoline/oil follows the political "numbers." When the Democrats in 2008 joined with Bush the price of gasoline fell. When Obama brought back the ban prices rose.

    Interestingly enough, in August 2008 Obama opined that problem was "price shock." He thought that if oil prices increased slowly it would be okay.

    Link

    Well, that theory can be filed under, "Another Obama Stupid." I mean he makes Bush look brilliant.

    Parent

    Uhhhhm, yeah .... REALLY (none / 0) (#90)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 08:27:52 AM EST
    Strange how, even using your silly metric (unemployment numbers), you had to go well into mid-2008 to try to make the numbers support your silly claim.  From Jan. through June of 2008, the number went from 5 to 5.6%, a noticeablr increase, but nothing remotely approaching the sharp increase from July onward.  Guess that's why you had to "revise" your claim to include August numbers.

    Heh.

    More importantly, you can repeat your silly winger theory all you want, but that's all it is - actually, "fairy tale" would be a more apt description, given that not a single study or oil industry expert has been foolish enough to make that claim.  But I guess that's the real advantage to just making $hit up, ...

    ... it's easy.

    "Risible", ... but easy.

    Parent

    From 9/07 to 8/08 (none / 0) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 08:49:28 AM EST
    Unemployment went up 22%.

    That's a big jump.

    Facts be facts.

    Funny how you can't face them.

    Parent

    And from "late 2007" (none / 0) (#92)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 09:20:17 AM EST
    ... into early 2008 (the period you were originally creating fairy tales about) they moved up slightly.  From mid-2008 onward (the period coinciding with the oil price drop), unemployment skyrocketed as the US and world economies were racked by the recession.  As every study and expert has shown, the slowing economies caused a large drop in demand, which in turn caused prices to fall.

    Fairy tales be fairy tales, which is why you still haven't provided a single study or expert to support yours.

    Parent

    Please quit making things up (none / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 09:51:10 AM EST
    I wrote:

    And as I wrote previously.

    The economy was going down in late 2007 and into 2008.

    Yet the charts show gasoline prices going up. Hit all time highs in July 2008...

    BTW - The world economies has followed our economy. Now, if that happened, then demand should have dropped and gasoline prices stayed low.

    Yet they did not. They went up.

    Repeat after me.

    Oil prices are greatly impacted by political actions.

    The Left favors high oil prices because the Left wants "green" energy. That "green" energy cannot provide what we need seems to escape them.

    Obama brought the regulations back to satisfy his Left wing base.

    The gasoline suppliers saw this as an approval by government for high prices over a long period of time. In fact, see the link in which he approves of that.

    Obama approves high gasoline prices.

    Parent

    Completely irrelevant and a LIE (none / 0) (#102)
    by Yman on Sun Nov 20, 2011 at 08:12:22 AM EST
    You keep posting to this video that doesn't say what you (or the title of the video) claims.  If you actually listen to the video clip, Obama never says he either "wants" or "approves" high gasoline prices.  What he says is that he "would have preferred a gradual adjustment" to the sharp rise in oil prices, not that he wanted or approves high oil prices.  The rapid rise in oil prices shocked the US and world economy at a time when it was weak, as pretty much every economist acknowledges.  This is not the same thing as desiring or "approving high gasoline prices".

    But back to the original fairy tale ... still not a single link to support your winger fantasy that the lifting of the moratorium caused gas prices to drop?

    I wonder why that is ....

    Heh.

    Parent

    Please quit making things up (none / 0) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 09:51:11 AM EST
    I wrote:

    And as I wrote previously.

    The economy was going down in late 2007 and into 2008.

    Yet the charts show gasoline prices going up. Hit all time highs in July 2008...

    BTW - The world economies has followed our economy. Now, if that happened, then demand should have dropped and gasoline prices stayed low.

    Yet they did not. They went up.

    Repeat after me.

    Oil prices are greatly impacted by political actions.

    The Left favors high oil prices because the Left wants "green" energy. That "green" energy cannot provide what we need seems to escape them.

    Obama brought the regulations back to satisfy his Left wing base.

    The gasoline suppliers saw this as an approval by government for high prices over a long period of time. In fact, see the link in which he approves of that.

    Obama approves high gasoline prices.

    Parent

    Poland, yes! (none / 0) (#30)
    by christinep on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 02:15:48 PM EST
    Being proud of my Polish heritage, I'll stand with you, MT, in your cheers.  The Solidarnosc movement can be the exemplar for downtrodden workders in a number of today's societies.

    Yet, hark back to my monotonous rant the other day on the importance of emerging leadership: Solidarnosc/Solidarity did have a personable & persuasive spokesman leader in Lech Walesa. Beginning with the days at the locked gates of the Gdansk shipyards, it was Walesa and those around him who voiced the concerns & goals of the shipyard workers and then the entire nation's industrial workders. He acted with clarity; and, with great courage; and, with focus.

    Parent

    I dunno (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by nycstray on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 02:44:15 PM EST
    I thought the projection on the Verizon building was kind of a nice "spokesperson". Also liked what the OCB students did. I think the creativity in messaging should be allowed to develop. I don't know if we would have seen either event if there had been a spokesperson/list of demands that so many can't seem to deal without. Occupy is slowly building, and very thoughtfully.

    Parent
    Just saw that image on the news (none / 0) (#1)
    by nycstray on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 07:12:15 PM EST
    very nice touch.

    More NYPD sadistic thuggery (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 17, 2011 at 07:30:43 PM EST
    Watch as a members of the NYPD hold an Occupy Wall Street protester down and proceed to take turns beating and kicking him.
    [snip]
    Several members of the NYPD formed a circle to keep the protesters away while another group of officers held a protester down and took turns beating and kicking him. Screams of they're hurting him, an he's bleeding can be clearly heard on the video.

    At about the two and a half minute mark, you can clearly see a police officer on the left hand side of the screen kicking a motionless protester. Later in the video you can see a member of the NYPD on the right hand side of the screen also kicking the protester, who did not appear to be resisting arrest.

    At roughly the 4:45 mark, you can see police getting the protester up on his feet. The protester is clearly bleeding from both front and back of his head. The NYPD then starts telling Luke Rudkowski, who was filming the incident to, "Get out of here." It is clear that they didn't want their actions caught on tape. The NYPD then shove the protesters.

    --video at PoliticsUSA.com, Nov 17...

    If nothing else (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by NYShooter on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:20:27 PM EST
    this just shows how petrified the 1%'ers are of OWS. Bloomberg, the Poster Boy for the 1%'ers seems to want to be their hero.

    I guess he was too busy piling up his billions to learn the lesson of the Arab Spring.

    I can see the signs now:  "Ben Ali, Mubarek, Gadhafi...., Bloomberg"

     

    Parent

    bloomy must've (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:29:00 PM EST
    loved this...

    As Occupy Wall Street protesters were walking across the Brooklyn Bridge on Thursday evening, a mysterious series of images flashed across the facade of the Verizon building, located near the East River, starting with a circled "99%."

    "LOOK AROUND / YOU ARE A PART / OF A GLOBAL UPRISING / WE ARE A CRY / FROM THE HEART / OF THE WORLD / WE ARE UNSTOPPABLE / ANOTHER WORLD IS POSSIBLE ... OCCUPY EARTH / WE ARE WINNING / IT IS THE BEGINNING OF THE BEGINNING / DO NOT BE AFRAID / LOVE."

    Boing Boing tracked down the signal's creator, Mark Read, to find out what had inspired the dramatic display and how he had brought it off.

    --video at RawStory

    I imagine there's good market for things like xanax and sleeping pills these days among the 1%.

    Depends?

    Parent

    Let's hope (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by NYShooter on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:52:24 PM EST
    they sleep for many, many generations to come.

    Parent
    Bloomberg donates hundreds of millions (none / 0) (#79)
    by tigercourse on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:49:26 PM EST
    of dollars to charity every year. He's a flawed Mayor and I've got plenty of problems with him but their is so much hyperbole here.

    Gadhafi? Really?

    Parent

    I liked Bloomberg too (none / 0) (#99)
    by CST on Sat Nov 19, 2011 at 12:28:08 PM EST
    but he's being a real @sshole.

    Charity is great, but it's not going to solve our deficit problems, and it's not going to save social security or medicare, and it's certainly not going to solve the unemployment problem.

    If I had as much money as he did, it would be nothing to write that check every year.  What would be something is for him to stand up and do his job as mayor without using the NYPD as the personal securtiy guards for Wall Street.

    His reaction to the entire OWS scene has been one of petty vindictiveness.  He should be ashamed of himself, and frankly, you should be ashamed of him too.  Does that make him Gadhafi?  No.  But I also don't see why you waste your time defending him on this.  He's not worth defending.  He's a major league @sshole.

    Parent

    Sad to say, but if this was a story (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 08:52:25 PM EST
    coming out of some Middle East or African or Third World nation, people like Barack Obama would be expressing outrage; that it is happening here, in a country that thinks it is a shining beacon of democracy, is so ironic and hypocritical that I don't know how we can ever be taken seriously as some kind of role model.

    Parent
    Yes. The hypocrisy is amazing, isn't it? (none / 0) (#81)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 09:05:58 PM EST
    That's why I posted this today...

    Parent
    We know how 1968 turned out (none / 0) (#36)
    by diogenes on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 06:19:02 PM EST
    Riots in the streets.  Sitting Democratic president.  Last time that happened we ended up with Richard Nixon.

    We know how Nixon turned out (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 07:36:19 PM EST
    Both democrats and republicans should be terrified of Occupy. And they are...

    Parent
    Re OWS....Just beautiful (none / 0) (#37)
    by NYShooter on Fri Nov 18, 2011 at 06:31:53 PM EST
    From Reality Based Community

    See "Barry," about halfway down the comments

    LINK

    Occupying Earth: City by City | 102 comments (102 topical)

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