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Open Thread for College Campus Protests

I am not writing about the Israel-Hamas war, or as of yet, the protests on college campuses. But I know everyone has strong feelings about the protests. And many readers do want to discuss them. So here's an open thread for those of you who do want to discuss these topics.

Keep in mind TalkLeft is not the government and what you consider free speech may differ from my interpretation of acceptable speech. And since this is my site, my interpretation prevails. [More...]

As a related side-note, I still follow the Twitter feeds of several ISIS/Syria researchers, most of whom are now covering ISIS in Africa. One who has a different focus is Aymenn J. Al-Tamimi, who writes primarily about Syria, but may be best known for his multi-lingual abilities, and his translation of an encyclopedic amount of ISIS-created documents from Arabic into English.

He doesn't usually offer political opinions, he considers himself a researcher, not a journalist or pundit. The other day, he wrote a column about the pro-Palestinian campus protests and the concept of Cognitive Egocentrism, which I recommend as thoughtful reading.

The term ‘cognitive egocentrism’ was long ago coined by Richard Landes to describe the phenomenon of projecting one’s own assumptions and ideals about the world onto others.

...Leaving aside questions of rights and wrongs, it seems to me that any political cause needs to be understood and dealt with according to the realities on the ground, and not on the basis of wishful thinking on the part of outsiders. Thus, the Palestinian cause and what represents it are defined principally by the Palestinians themselves who are on the ground in the Palestinian territories and the Palestinian factions that represent them.

When this point is borne in mind, it becomes apparent that some of the discourse about the Palestinian cause in the pro-Palestine protests and wider advocacy in Western countries is well out of touch with those realities, and instead projects its own intellectual fantasies and ideals onto the Palestinian cause.

After providing a lot of examples of the intellecutal fantasies of outsiders, including ones he personally experienced during time he spent there, he concludes:

None of the above should be read as advocacy for one side or the other in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is simply an analysis of how some activism and advocacy for the Palestinian cause in the West reflects cognitive egocentrism described by Landes so long ago, as some project their idealised perceptions and pet causes onto the Palestinian cause in a way that is divorced from sober ground truths. In other words, there is an emotional and romanticised identification with the cause, but not one that has been well thought through.

On yet another different but related topic, you will not find me comparing the 1968 Vietnam War protests at Columbia and other colleges, or the actions of SDS and the Weather Underground or the 1970 Kent State tragedy, when members of the U.S. National Guard who had been called in to stop a campus protest killed four protesting students, to today's campus protests.

The 1960's were unique. No amount of magical thinking will resurrect them. Those of us who were fortunate to have lived in the midst of events of the decade, know that there will never be another Woodstock, another Richard Nixon, or another Hunter Thompson (RIP Hunter). There will never be another peaceful war protest with 500,000 college kids like the one at the Washington Monument, scenes from which are in the movie Forest Gump.

The 1960's were about peace, love, drugs, sex and freedom. What will always be missing from the current protests and future protests is love. Dissidence is the voice of the decade, not peace, hugs, or drugs that make you happy.

That said, there well may be another Altamont, which brought the 60's era to a crashing end.

From what I can tell, today's protests are rooted in hate and being run by professional groups of outside agitators who know all too well how to attract disaffected and naive college students, who care mostly about being socially accepted by their peers, and are not about to do any research on the underlying topic. They are fine picking up the phrase of the day they hear coming from a bullhorn.

Today's protests don't represent a free speech condundrum to me. All public speech has limitations, one of which is that you cannot call for the death, assault or banishment by force of any specific group within society.

If you wandered in here by accident, please read our comment policy. TalkLeft is a junkyard for you to dump your most hateful thoughts. Understand that any comment I view as anti-semitic will be deleted. And that in my view, a comment doesn't lose its anti-semitic character by substituting the word "Zionist" for "Israeli" or "Jewish person".

Hate, insults, personal attacks, name-calling, and calls for violence against any individual or group, will be deleted -- this includes referring to the Israeli-Hamas war as a genocide or a holocaust, which I personally find offensive.

If you take five minutes, you will find that you can express your position quite clearly without using profanity or emotionally charged accusations.

Please keep your comments in this thread related to the pro-Palestinian campus protests, the responses by the colleges, and the involvement of our police and military and comparisons to protests of other eras.

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  • Display: Sort:
    LIkely TYPO (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by jmacWA on Fri May 03, 2024 at 05:10:23 AM EST
    TalkLeft is a ^^^ junkyard for you to dump your most hateful thoughts.

    I am quite certain the word NOT is missing.

    you are quite right and quite the eagle eye today. (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Sat May 04, 2024 at 04:34:09 AM EST
    Thanks, I'll fix it in the a.m.

    Parent
    What student protestors want (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by john horse on Sat May 04, 2024 at 10:31:25 AM EST
    From what I can tell, today's protests are rooted in hate. . .

    The Israeli government has killed over 34,000 Palestinians in Gaza, the vast majority of whom were civilians, including many women and children.  They have destroyed hospitals, mosques, schools and homes.  They have killed hundreds of aid workers and journalists.  They have hindered the delivery of food, water, and humanitarian aid.  What the Israeli government is doing in Gaza is rooted in hate.  What Hamas did on October 6 was rooted in hate.  I fail to see how criticism of Israeli policies in Gaza is "rooted in hate".

    From what I can tell, today's protests are . . . being run by professional groups of outside agitators who know all too well how to attract disaffected and naive college students, who care mostly about being socially accepted by their peers, and are not about to do any research on the underlying topic.

    Do you believe that students don't have the agency to think for themselves?  Who are these "outside agitators"?  To be clear, I'm not saying that some of the protestors on campuses aren't students but that is not the claim you are making.  Your claim is that the student protest is being "run by professional group of outside agitators."  What evidence do you have for this?

    What campus protestors want varies, but from what I could gather what they generally want is divestment by colleges from companies that are aiding Israelis war effort.  (not dissimilar to the divestment movement against the apartheid South African government in the 70s)
    I think many of these students also favor a ceasefire in Gaza (as does President Biden) and the end of US military aid to Israel (which Biden doesn't favor).

    By the way I think Jeralyn's suggestion that students "research the underlying topic" is good advice.  I would just also apply it to those of us who aren't students.

    I agree almost entirely with this comment (none / 0) (#6)
    by Peter G on Sat May 04, 2024 at 12:42:56 PM EST
    and unfortunately must disagree in several respects with our host, my old friend J. Today is May 4, the anniversary of the shootings at Kent State. That indelible memory should teach a never-to-be-forgotten lesson about why calling out armed police -- or worse, the National Guard -- to quell a nonviolent (even if angry) demonstration will almost always make matters worse, not better.
       On May 1, 1970, I was a college junior, but I had been at home for six weeks, in bed, a hundred miles from my campus, on a semester's medical leave recovering from mononucleosis. (The mono was brought on by the prior three months of two all-nighters a week as editor-in-chief of our college newspaper, along with a full load of classes, social life, antiwar political activity, etc.) I was deeply disturbed by the news of Nixon's expansion of the Vietnam War into Cambodia, but it was not until May 4 that I was jolted out of bed, compelled to return to campus to join my peers in protest. But those protests (like me as an individual) were antiwar, not pro-Vietcong or pro-Ho Chi Minh, much less anti-American. Even though some of the many demonstrations I joined included individuals, who I tried to stay away from, who were pro-Vietcong and did root for America's military defeat.
       Likewise, I understand today's protests (to the limited extent I can understand them as a much-older outsider) as sympathetic to the Palestinian victims of an excessive and criminal military assault and the unreasonable and cruel policies of the Netanyahu regime in Israel toward the territories seized by Israel after the 1967 War that was launched against it. The protesters believe, as I do, that the United State can and should do more to pressure Israel to change course, and should do less to support Israel militarily. I do not understand the demonstrations as pro-Hamas, pro-violence, or as excusing the horrific atrocities perpetrated on October 7 (even though there are surely individuals within those encampments and demonstrations who do excuse Hamas). Likewise, speaking as someone whose ancestry is 100% Eastern European Jewish, I do not confuse opposition to Israeli policy or even to Israel's existence, as inherently antisemitic (although such views could stem in some cases from antisemitism), any more than I would describe Israel's current illegal and indefensible policies and behavior as being (agreeing with Jeralyn on this point) a form of genocide.
       Finally, I would and do defend the free speech rights of those who disagree with me on any of these points, including calls for the elimination of Israel as a Zionist state. Speech that is hateful or makes other uncomfortable (or "feel unsafe") is still mostly protected by free speech principles, as long as it does not amount to harassment of individuals or incitement to imminent lawless action that is likely to produce such action.

    Parent
    The protests are going to put (none / 0) (#2)
    by Chuck0 on Fri May 03, 2024 at 01:34:44 PM EST
    Orange Jesus in the White House. These protests are going to kill Biden at the polls in November. These kids blame the current administration for aiding the mass killings in Gaza. They will stay home in November. We need their votes. Biden needs to take these protests seriously and change course in Israel.

    Political (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 03, 2024 at 07:03:02 PM EST