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North Carolina Debate Scratched

By Jeralyn, Section Elections 2008
Posted on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:34:51 PM EST
Tags: North Carolina '08 (all tags)
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The North Carolina Democratic Party today announced the April 27 debate has been canceled.

Which candidate do you think agrees with the reason? After noting the heightened interest in the race between Hillary and Obama, the notice reads:

However, there were also growing concerns about what another debate would do to party unity.

Has a debate ever been canceled before on grounds of party unity?

< Open Thread | Hillary Clinton on Countdown Tonight >

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    North Carolina Debate Scratched | 130 comments (130 topical)

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    I think that's another way of saying... (5.00 / 11) (#1)
    by Shainzona on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:37:55 PM EST
    "We don't want to make Obama look bad again".

    Obviously NC Dems are in bed with Dean and Brazile, et al.

    Drat--I was hoping Hillary would turn up and (5.00 / 5) (#3)
    by jawbone on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:39:55 PM EST
    get to have a town meeting with the audience.

    Parent
    in lieu of a formal Debate (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by ccpup on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:47:07 PM EST
    that's probably what she'll do and she'll more than likely -- post-Indiana win -- do them right in the heart of Obama Country and gain some converts along the way.

    With his last debate fiasco -- viewed by 10 million people, no less --, there are those in NC who may want to support him, but fear as nice as he is, he may just not be ready yet.  Canceling a debate pre-NC Primary doesn't help matters.

    And then in comes Hillary with her facts, her figures, her intelligence and warmth in a town hall meeting where ordinary people like you and me get to ask her questions and she answers and actually cares and people think "wait a minute, why am I supporting Obama again?" and BOOM! we now have an Undecided whose trending toward Hillary.

    I suspect NC will be closer than we think.  Still an Obama win, but not the blow-out it should be considering the demographics.  

    And the Superdelegate's doubts about an Obama Candidacy against McCain grow stronger.  They can either choose the one who actually wins when the chips are down, the media's against her and she's outspent or go with the one who says he'll win, spends heavily to do so, peaks a week early and then comes up empty-handed in the end.

    I know who I'm picking.

    :-)

    Parent

    NC and Edwards (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Nasarius on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:33:39 PM EST
    It's going to be really interesting to see Edwards finally have to commit one way or the other. Will he divulge that information before the primary? I kinda doubt it, which is unfortunate, because my gut says he'll wind up voting for Hillary, and his endorsement might mean something in NC.

    Parent
    And maybe he'll sing, instead (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:48:49 PM EST
    because isn't that what American Idol candidates do?

    Parent
    Leave Barack Alone! (5.00 / 7) (#33)
    by Iphie on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:49:24 PM EST
    I was thinking that it was the NC Democratic Party's way of saying "Leave Barack Alooone!" Poor dear, why must people ask him those hard questions? It's just not fair.

    Parent
    perhaps not (none / 0) (#5)
    by ccpup on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:40:21 PM EST
    Another Poster suggested earlier -- previous Thread perhaps? -- that the NC Democratic Party sounded pissed, so I think Obama probably pulled out (pre-PA Primary, which is just weird) for fear of doing more self-inflicted damage.

    Parent
    no - Obama didn't "pull out" (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:50:56 PM EST
    he just suggested a date for the debate that he knew would be rejected - April 19 - the start of Passover. And didn't suggest another date.
    http://tinyurl.com/3nkpj6

    Parent
    Could someone please (none / 0) (#86)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:43:34 PM EST
    start a drive to send the Obama campaign as many live chickens as the post office can handle?

    (It's true!  You can send live chickens in the mail!)

    Parent

    Never mind the chickens, (none / 0) (#127)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:10:02 AM EST
    just send him white feathers. They are the symbol of cowardice. Have been for a very long time. Obama is showing the white feather, would be the old-fashioned way of putting it.

    Parent
    Actually, our Governor (none / 0) (#103)
    by barba on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:52:46 PM EST
    Mike Easley wrote Obama a letter around 04/16 asking him to debate in NC and how he felt it would be a good thing for the party here and energize the new voters.  I don't however that whoever made the statement of party unity is in the tank for Obama.  I don't think the Gov is though...http://www.charlotte.com/breaking_news/story/582918.html

    Parent
    Wierd excuse (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by wasabi on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:39:52 PM EST
    Debating decreases party unity.  Who knew...

    You're right the logic is flawed (5.00 / 10) (#32)
    by Mark Woods on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:49:11 PM EST
    Obama logic:

    Debating = bad
    Bullying = good.

    Sure sounds like a repeat of Dubya to me.

    Parent

    When the first Dem debates happened (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:51:51 PM EST
    they increased my good feelings about my Party. I thought, wow! these folks are all so smart and capable. The Republicans are a joke - they have no chance in November!

    Now...I wish I could get that feeling back.

    Parent

    But telling Hillary to quit (5.00 / 5) (#42)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:53:48 PM EST
    is good for party unity.

    And
    Up is down
    Right is left
    Good is bad.

    Parent

    the sky is green (5.00 / 0) (#87)
    by Kathy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:44:33 PM EST
    and the grass is blue.

    Parent
    Oh dear.. I seem to have (none / 0) (#128)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:12:04 AM EST
    mowed the sky by mistake!! Ooops!!

    Parent
    Cancelled due to lack of courage by Obama! (5.00 / 6) (#4)
    by athyrio on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:39:59 PM EST


    Laughable (5.00 / 13) (#6)
    by Xeno on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:41:01 PM EST
    I literally laughed out loud when I read this. Obama's chickens aren't coming home to roost, they're running around with their heads chopped off.

    The debate was scratched because of what it could do to the campaign of one particular candidate, party be damned. A more craven, cowardly display has seldom been seen. The Clinton campaign should make plenty of hay out of this.

    Yep! (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:44:33 PM EST
    How does the Party think he is going to handle McCain, much less any problems that come along in the White House?!

    Brave Sir Obama indeed!

    Parent

    Running away in terror won't work in the GE (5.00 / 5) (#55)
    by Xeno on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:01:29 PM EST
    Especially since the press is so in love with McCain. While it's conceivable that Obama will claim that there isn't enough time for multiple debates in the Fall, he probably won't get away with it. He would rightly be perceived as fearing McCain. As well he should, since his debating skills are obviously weak.

    The Clinton camp is already hitting Obama on his cowardice, which no amount of spin can camouflage. One exceptionally bad debate and suddenly the man is doing a Roberto Duran impression. He just looks weak, in my opinion.

    Parent

    Hillary should buy a block of time and (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by allimom99 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:42:20 PM EST
    address the voters of NC directly about why this happened and also to get her message out in her own way.

    I have NO DOUBT that Obama's campaign went whining to the state party, making demands or trying to set roolz for any debate, or just refused to go along entirely. Way to respect the voters.

    they'll both speak at the JJ dinner May 2 (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:48:18 PM EST


    Parent
    This is very presidential (5.00 / 11) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:42:39 PM EST
    We will skip the hard bits of the presidency so the president can eat his waffle.  

    When (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:46:57 PM EST
    you realize that he thinks he can learn foreign policy in gradeschool, you know what an Obama presidency will look like.

    Parent
    Or Borrow Bush's Copy of My Pet Goat (none / 0) (#16)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:44:31 PM EST


    Parent
    Will The Spin Ever Stop (5.00 / 6) (#10)
    by PssttCmere08 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:42:46 PM EST
    When was the last time the democratic party was this energized?  If they are going to have a debate, each candidate should be able to ask about 8 questions on issues and their platform and debate them.  There would be a moderator who would ask these questions and be in charge of time keeping...that is all! Obama would be a quivering mass after the beating Clinton would give him in that type of debate.

    sheesh (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by barba on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:55:50 PM EST
    he's a quivering mass after the last debate, that's why he isn't doing NC...  

    Parent
    As Josh is probably thinking (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:43:05 PM EST
    Hillary gelded him, so -- cahoney-less -- he can't do another debate.

    The poor guy.

    I don't think there was anything to remove (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:47:40 PM EST
    in the first place.

    Parent
    There have been so many debates... (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by citizen53 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:43:28 PM EST
    but so few one on one debates.

    We lose when the candidates do not debate, but get to use their money to manipulate voters and create an illusion of who we are.

    Let us see them unvarnished, even if it's 100 times.

    This is the most important job in the world, and we treat it like selling car insurance.

    I meant who THEY are... (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by citizen53 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:44:40 PM EST
    if you misconstrued.  Sorry.

    Parent
    read the whole article (5.00 / 6) (#13)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:43:42 PM EST
    Looks like Obama was up to his old tricks!

    >>>On Monday, the party did not blame Obama for causing the cancellation. The Clinton campaign did.

    "It is unfortunate that Senator Obama has chosen to brush off the people of North Carolina by flatly refusing to debate," Clinton's N.C. director Ace Smith said in a statement. "But we are willing to move forward with another time and location for the debate so that he has no excuse for not participating."

    http://tinyurl.com/3nkpj6

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Burned on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:12:07 PM EST
    Its definitely worth the read.
    It is very clear from the article what happened here. I think it was clear to the reporter too.

    It kind of makes me queasy.

    Parent

    I hope Obama takes the time to practice (5.00 / 6) (#15)
    by tigercourse on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:44:09 PM EST
    for the General election debates. Because those are going to be alot harder then the ones he's pulling out of now.

    You honestly think a debate (5.00 / 0) (#47)
    by independent voter on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:58:21 PM EST
    against John McCain will be difficult? How so? I do look forward to your thoughts

    Parent
    "Senator McCain, what was it like to (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by tigercourse on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:00:16 PM EST
    suffer for those 5 years in a Vietnamese prison camp where you sewed your own flag to salute every morning"?

    "Senator Obama, why shouldn't people be allowed to own guns?"

    Parent

    Or (5.00 / 7) (#56)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:02:01 PM EST
    "Senator McCain, what was it like suffering all those years as a POW while Obama's friends were blowing up the Pentagon?"  

    It may not be fair, but that's how it will play.

    Parent

    Yeah, I forgot about Ayer for a moment there. (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by tigercourse on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:10:35 PM EST
    That'll be the gift that keeps on giving.

    Parent
    For Hillary, no (5.00 / 4) (#53)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:00:25 PM EST
    For Obama, yes.  He's a lousy debater. I don't believe he could stand his own against McCain.

    Parent
    Senator mccain (none / 0) (#81)
    by Chisoxy on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:06:38 PM EST
    1 - you called obama out for being an ambitous senator interested in politics, do you still feel that way?

    2- How notable is it that Senator Obama backed out on your public financing pledge.

    3- patriot/straight talk question

    Parent

    Let's Hope (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by themomcat on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:06:03 PM EST
    that he won't need to practice.

    Parent
    Unity? (5.00 / 8) (#19)
    by AnninCA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:44:55 PM EST
    What is interesting is that there is obviously no party unity.  I simply can't imagine what the Dem leadership is thinking to continue to push her out of the race.  He obviously doesn't appeal to moderate Dems.  There's a huge split right down the middle of the party.

    They are dreaming if they imagine he can "heal" this problem.

    Obama supporters don't really even seem to want moderates in the group.  The entire strategy has been to insult and denigrate that group.  OK.  Mission accomplished.

    Now, the Democrats will have to live with the consequences of that strategy.

    It's not just moderates (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:48:29 PM EST
    but true liberals and progressives as well.

    Universal health care, investment in green energy, bringing the troops home, improving social services and healing the economy, repairing relations with our allies...these are all liberal and progressive goals.

    I don't see Obama as being capable of carrying them out.

    Parent

    or even WANTING to (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by miguelito on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:55:14 PM EST


    Parent
    They are determined to tear apart (5.00 / 4) (#43)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:54:16 PM EST
    the Clintons. They've hated them always.  And should they give Obama the nomination with all the problems he obviously has with every demographic except 2, they'll lose worse than McGovern in 72.  And Hillary will still be there.  And they will be out on their asses.

    Parent
    Did you see Craig Crawford (none / 0) (#92)
    by waldenpond on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:59:30 PM EST
    He was on C-span and said something to the effect that superseez will go with him even if he loses because they think the new people will build the party.  ?willing to give over November for numbers in the future?  sheesh

    Parent
    Yep All Those Dems For A Day Are Worth (none / 0) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:20:42 PM EST
    the price of the WH.

    Parent
    I did not see that. (none / 0) (#120)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:56:34 PM EST
    But this has been my belief all along. They will give him the nomination even if HRC wins the popular vote. I am sure of it.  And good luck DNC with the new party members...because I'm not sure they'll make up for all the millions you'll LOSE.

    Parent
    This makes Obama look all the worse! (5.00 / 6) (#24)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:47:40 PM EST
    He is being SO obvious about being afraid of debates!! It's ridiculous. I mean the 3 year old freak out about ABC's debate followed by canceling the very next one (party unity??? If you care about party unity Obama you wouldn't be trying to equate BC with GWB) just makes him look like an enormous WUSS.

    Any evidence Obama pulled out? (5.00 / 0) (#26)
    by SpinDoctor on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:48:00 PM EST
    Or is this just another way to stoke the anti-Obama flames?

    He was the one who pulled out. (5.00 / 6) (#41)
    by dianem on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:53:37 PM EST
    Here is the link. Apparently, Obama doesn't feel that another debate is necessary, and he doesn't feel that he can fit it into his busy campaign schedule. I don't see why - it's obvious that he doesn't take any time to prepare for the debates.

    (Okay, that was snarky, but I do get the feeling that Obama does not take debates very seriously).

    Parent

    Plus... (5.00 / 4) (#44)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:54:53 PM EST
    he doesn't want to get his ass handed to him by a GIRL!!

    Parent
    Such A Manly Man n/t (none / 0) (#54)
    by MO Blue on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:00:28 PM EST


    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 5) (#46)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:56:31 PM EST
    with limited time, it's better to see a crowd of 20,000 than an audience of 11 million.

    I see the logic there.

    Up is down
    Right is left
    Good is bad.

    Parent

    If you debate like Obama it is (5.00 / 5) (#59)
    by dianem on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:05:21 PM EST
    He's much better when he is reading a prepared speech than when he actually has to deal with questions from reporters. This is probably a good choice for him. It's too bad he won't have the option of not debating McCain.

    Parent
    Obama doesn't do debates (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:58:33 PM EST
    very well.  He's just gonna take his toys and go home!

    Parent
    He is up by like 20% in NC (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:05:19 PM EST
    I can see why he needs to spend a lot of time campaigning there.

    I think that is the campaign version of 'wants to spend more time with his family'.

    Parent

    There are lots of things (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by IzikLA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:30:04 PM EST
    Obama doesn't seem to have the time for, debating is only one of them.  Hillary, strangely, has had time for showing up at a lot of events he just couldn't be bothered with.

    The man obviously does not like debates, especially after the last one.  He also hasn't talked to the press in 10 days.  These things are really starting to become worrisome to me.  I know Clinton will be able to stand next to McCain and have a substantive debate and win, I am not so sure about Obama.  It is really a concern to me as well that we can already figure out the narrative the Republicans will paint of Obama.

    Parent

    Obama said after the last one that (5.00 / 8) (#27)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:48:03 PM EST
    he didn't want to do anymore debates. He just wants to campaign. In other words, he wants to do sound bites instead of full sentences and paragraphs about the policies and plans on his web site. Why debate when we can go there and read all about it?? COWARD!!. That is all he is, just a coward who can't stand up to a woman. Well, let me tell you, that isn't going to play well in NC. Not at all well. And you know it was Obama pulling out, not Hillary. He is a coward, and has just proved it. If he wants the damn job of President, he had better show that he can fight for his policies, such as they are. He seems to expect us to give him the job because he is cute or something. I don't think he is, reminds me of Alfred E. Neuman, without the tooth gap. But this just shows how he thinks of the electorate, he doesn't think he has to prove a damn thing to us. Well, he is WRONG!!!!

    it's more proof of Obama's elitism (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Josey on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:20:36 PM EST
    >>>>But this just shows how he thinks of the electorate, he doesn't think he has to prove a damn thing to us.

    That's what Dems have been saying about Bush for 7 years!

    Parent

    Hillary could debate and use (5.00 / 9) (#31)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:48:51 PM EST
    a rusty tomato can as a stand in for Obama. I think the result would be about the same.

    Rusty tomato can (5.00 / 7) (#37)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:51:52 PM EST
    might do better.  I've never heard a rusty tomato can go "Uh...uh...uh..."

    Parent
    True ... (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:58:35 PM EST
    and would have to be pretty darn rusty to look as rusty as Obama did in Philly.

    Parent
    No, a large can, not trash can, but (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by FlaDemFem on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:33:31 PM EST
    that size. And label it "Yes We Can". Debate with that. It would have as much substance as Obama, and have his campaign slogan front and center. If people want to know what his policies are, they can read the can. Heh.

    Parent
    Quit being so mean to him! (5.00 / 7) (#34)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:50:55 PM EST
    He just wants to eat his waffles in peace.

    I wonder if he complained about the (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:53:27 PM EST
    ham. He's used to better, you know.

    Parent
    That waffle line ... (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by Robot Porter on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:00:24 PM EST
    is just a gift that keeps on giving.

    I'm not gonna get tired of this one for quite a while.

    Parent

    No one has done for for waffles (5.00 / 5) (#60)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:05:38 PM EST
    than Barack Obama.

    Parent
    Neitthe will the Republican Party (5.00 / 4) (#62)
    by dianem on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:07:48 PM EST
    I'm buying stock in whatever company makes Eggo's. They will be showing up at a lot of campaign events later this year.

    Parent
    Secret Service will have something to say (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by reynwrap582 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:46:54 PM EST
    about that...  They're deadly weapons...  Have you ever thrown an Eggo?  Especially when still frozen or shortly after being heavily toasted and crispy?  Those things fly farther than ninja stars...and they have corners.

    Waffles are a terrible thing for a presidential candidate to be eating in the first place.  Why do you think they never wear flip-flops?

    Parent

    They have round waffle makers (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by nycstray on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:35:31 PM EST
    those could be a lot of fun at a rally with his logo iced on them  ;)

    Parent
    me neither. (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:07:01 PM EST
    I get a giggle with every joke about it, even ones I've already seen.

    Parent
    If he wanted to eat (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by themomcat on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:09:42 PM EST
    and not take questions, he should have stayed in his hotel room and ordered room service.

    Parent
    What's this about the waffles? (none / 0) (#50)
    by Iphie on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:59:04 PM EST
    I don't get the reference -- what did I miss?

    Parent
    He was asked a foreign policy question (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by ccpup on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:03:40 PM EST
    by a reporter about Carter's meeting with Hamas (I think) in a diner today and he responded "Why can't I just eat my waffle?"

    Parent
    Here ya go (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by stillife on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:05:05 PM EST
    Why can't I just eat my waffles in peace?

    Parent
    That's really funny. (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by Iphie on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:48:51 PM EST
    Reminiscent of that press conference where he got so exasperated that people were asking him questions: "Guys, come on. I answered like eight questions already!"

    Parent
    One debate where he's the one with the hard (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by g8grl on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:52:37 PM EST
    questions and he's too scared to do another one.  If this country elects this coward as President, we have learned nothing from the last eight years.  Pathetic.

    What's pathetic (1.00 / 2) (#80)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:06:02 PM EST
    are people such as yourself calling a prominent a Democrat a coward simply because you want your preferred candidate to win.

    Shows that you people are no different than the people willing to use all sorts of pejoratives to describe Hillary.  

    Parent

    agreed (3.00 / 1) (#113)
    by white n az on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:53:32 PM EST
    This is pathetic.

    Another debate between Hillary and Obama would be a mistake of gigantic proportions as the last one surely proved.

    I don't much like calling Obama out as chicken - he's done 20+ debates already.

    Parent

    Debating Debates (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by AnninCA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:15:06 PM EST
    Obama so lost the battle of debates, he would be considered a political fool not to reject another one.

    However, let's do note:  He agreed.

    He is now retracting it.

    That's a theme with him.

    Parent

    if I were Hillary... (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by white n az on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:40:38 PM EST
    I'd want to back out too.

    There's nothing to be accomplished in yet another Democrat 'debate' at this point other than getting whacked by the 'liberal media'

    Golf balls get teed up...let's not put Democrats back onto the driving range, even if I think Hillary does better at them.

    Parent

    Here is a mirror: (none / 0) (#83)
    by Regency on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:26:41 PM EST
    Meet absurdity.

    Are you kidding? He is a coward for bowing out of the rest of the debates after being worked out ONCE. That's not cowardice?

    By the way, we mock Barack because it's true, not just because we despise him.  Those who mock Hillary, I'm sure, have perfectly solid reasons for disliking her after they turn off the programming chips in their brains. Chances are we'll never know.

    Parent

    What? (3.00 / 2) (#85)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:38:35 PM EST
    Bowing out the rest of the debates?  WTF are you talking about?  

    What exactly are we going to learn in a debate next week?  What is the value add?

    You have absolutely no idea whether Obama is a coward or not so please spare me the "We speak the truth" BS.  

    The fact that you think that this is the only debate that Obama has ever been grilled speaks to your own programming.  

    Last week's debate was 90 minutes of gotcha interviewing masquerading as a debate.

    Parent

    He's a wuss (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:59:13 PM EST
    not because he's a democrat, but because he's acting like a typical Republican afraid to debate. Simply because just like Dubya, he's terrible at them and it shows how smart he's really not.  That's why he's a wuss.

    Parent
    Oh for crying out loud! (3.00 / 2) (#97)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:23:48 PM EST
    He's been in 21 DEBATES!! How in the world is that being afraid of debates?  

    We have had 5 one on one debates, IIRC.  In one of them he did poorly because the moderators decided to make it a blood sport rather than a debate.  

    How is that being unwilling to debate?  Because he doesn't want to engage in another joke of a debate such as last week's?  

    This isn't some macho beer chugging competition.  It's a campaign to be President of the United States.  Obama achieves NOTHING by having another debate, particularly one like last week.  

    If the rolls were reversed Hillary wouldn't be wasting her time either.

    Parent

    Debate (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by AnninCA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:48:39 PM EST
    I understand why he's avoiding debates.  Obviously, he doesn't do well when he's not in control.

    Parent
    How bout you explain (1.00 / 1) (#102)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:51:05 PM EST
    why Obama should engage in a debate at this point?

    All the cute little one liners don't change the political landscape.  

    Parent

    Do you know how many live chickens (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by RalphB on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:14:30 PM EST
    can be mailed to the Obama campaign at once?  Some may want to send a message.

    Kathy asked upthread, but I haven't seen an answer yet.


    Parent

    Have a great time (1.00 / 1) (#111)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:19:04 PM EST
    Calling someone a chicken because they don't want to engage in their 22nd debate isn't likely to carry much weight.  

    But I'm sure you'll have fun wearing a chickensuit.

    Parent

    Y'all really do follow the (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by rooge04 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:55:17 PM EST
    campaign memes huh? Even if there were 40 debates! What's remotely wrong with that? Oh no! More policy talk,more actual campaigning for votes instead of lofty speeches and blacking out the press.  I love how Obama campaign lines are repeated verbatim by his supporters. They've had a handful of ONE on ONE debates.  To include the debates with 4 other people and more before that is just disingenuous.  It doesn't hold water when Obama says it nor when his supporters repeat it for him.  There is no way to spin this. He's simply AFRAID.  As well she should be.

    Parent
    It's chicks, not chickens. (none / 0) (#121)
    by Fabian on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 01:09:24 AM EST
    And please don't.  The postal rules for live chicks and live honeybees are meant to benefit farmers, not practical jokers.

    Parent
    He should debate so that the voters (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by FlaDemFem on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 10:34:10 AM EST
    can hear him articulate his policies and answer questions about his qualifications for office. He avoids debates because he can't articulate his policies or explain them, and he doesn't have the qualifications for the office of President. So he avoids venues that will show up the lack of substance of Barack Obama. In other words, he is in over his head, he knows it and is too much of an egotist to back out. So, he avoids situations that will show that he is in over his head. Like a swimmer sticking in the shallow end because he doesn't swim well enough to stay safe in the deep end. The Presidency is a tough job, with LOTS of questions and policy discussion. If he can't take the heat that comes in a debate, he sure as hell isn't ready for the White House.

    Parent
    Meanwhile, HRC is brave enough (5.00 / 4) (#63)
    by madamab on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:09:38 PM EST
    to confront Obamaman tonite on his show. See the next thread for live-blogging!

    She's on Larry King Live (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by themomcat on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:11:45 PM EST
    right after that. She has a lot of courage.

    Parent
    HRC, the dragon slayer (5.00 / 3) (#71)
    by pluege on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:31:03 PM EST
    she's been doing this all primary - confronting the irrational smearers and Clinton haters. Its one of the more impressive things she's done all primary - shown toughness in the face of the idiocy like Olbermann that gets thrown at her.

    Its also why she is far more electable than Obama. She is battle-toughened against the GOP slime machine. Obama would be ground up and spit out - he's just not ready.

    Parent

    Party Unity (5.00 / 6) (#68)
    by Nadai on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:12:32 PM EST
    *snort*

    Yeah, if we see more of Barack Obama trying to debate, we might not unify around him.

    who backed out? that's a toughie (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by pluege on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:27:38 PM EST
    the only ones to ever cancel or back out of a debate are those who lost the last debate. Certainly the winners would never miss another opportunity to score points.

    Better to Be Viewed as a Coward (5.00 / 4) (#75)
    by AnninCA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 07:58:18 PM EST
    Than be caught so ill-prepared again.  He can outlive the ABC disaster by blaming them.

    Twice in a row?  Wouldn't wash.

    Bakawk Obama (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by daryl herbert on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:01:40 PM EST
    Buk-Buk Barawk

    Does anyone remember "Chicken George"?

    A person dressed up in a chicken suit and went to George H. W. Bush's campaign events to make fun of him for refusing to debate with Bill Clinton.  It was effective then and it will be effective now.

    If Sen. Obama was smart, he would try to debate Sen. McCain.  That makes him look like the frontrunner, and it would be a very easy debate to win in terms of winning over registered Democrats.

    If Sen. McCain is more afraid of Sen. Clinton than Sen. Obama, he should agree to such a debate.

    Yeah (1.00 / 2) (#78)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:04:13 PM EST
    Clearly 21 debates isn't nearly enough debates and shows an unwillingness on Obama's part to engage in debates.

    Parent
    gotcha moments (5.00 / 0) (#98)
    by diogenes on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:28:47 PM EST
    Be it the Spitzer driver license plan or anything else, all that these twenty-one intraparty debates are good for are for generating "gotcha moments" which will haunt the candidate, whichever one wins the nomination, in the general election.  The gun control questions, Wright questions, and Tuzla questions in the last debate didn't need to be public laundry and only served to raise the Democratic candidates' general negatives while leaving John McCain coasting.  

    i believe we've now (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by cpinva on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:15:16 PM EST
    officially entered "wonderland". starring sen. obama as "alice", howard dean as "the white rabbit" and sen. clinton as "the cheshire cat".

    what could we possibly learn from another debate, that we've not learned from the 21 previous ones? a fair question. we might learn (assuming intelligent moderators asking intelligent questions) the specifics of each candidate's policies re: health care, disengaging from the republican/bush debacle in iraq, stemming the flow of red ink in the budget, etc. we might. apparently we won't now.

    we might also learn if sen. obama is capable of putting together a complete sentence extemporaneously, since there's been no evidence of that to date. think of debates as an oral defense of your thesis. if you can't explain yourself succinctly to your potential constituents, your opponent in the GE will certainly shred you.

    as well, we might learn that the last debate was an anomoly, and sen. obama is really much more prepared than he seemed. it would be to his advantage to put that on display.

    as it is, rightly or wrongly, he'll be portrayed as wussing out.

    It would seem kindergarten (2.33 / 6) (#77)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:02:47 PM EST
    is in session.

    Glad to see an alleged liberal website calling a prominent Democrat a pussy and coward.

    I'm sure you guys are praying for another debate.  Not because you think anything of value will come of it.  You simply realize that your candidate can't win unless she can beat down the front runner and the only way she can do that is by having debates about lapel pins.

    Maybe she could get another debate in which a Democrat has to defend potentially raising the Capital Gains tax not just once but repeatedly.  

    It's a real shame your candidate lost.  Maybe if she bothered to overcome her own weaknesses rather than attacking her opponent all the time, she might have won.  Who knows?

    please (5.00 / 4) (#88)
    by Nasarius on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:50:59 PM EST
    Obama does enough damage to himself with his constant gaffes, without the need to bring it up in a "debate".

    I want to see an hour on health care and social security, then an hour on foreign policy. That's how I want Hillary to crush Obama.

    Parent

    Hillary lost? (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by Lysis on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:55:06 PM EST
    Can I have tomorrow's winning lottery numbers too, O Wise Soothsayer?

    Parent
    I can also predict (1.00 / 1) (#94)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:11:34 PM EST
    with a high degree of confidence that the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow.  

    There is no endgame for Hillary unless Obama makes a suicidal mistake which is unlikely.

    You don't have to believe me, or at least admit that you know I am right.  But you all know the truth.  

    Hillary will win tomorrow but it will get almost nothing as the delegate count won't change.  And even if she somehow manages to get a slight lead in the popular vote it won't be enough to convince 80% of the remaining SDs to vote for her.  

    Parent

    Bad Policy, but Good Politics? No way. (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by daryl herbert on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:08:59 PM EST
    Maybe she could get another debate in which a Democrat has to defend potentially raising the Capital Gains tax not just once but repeatedly.  

    Sen. Obama was too arrogant to admit that he didn't know raising the capital gains tax would reduce revenue (and investment! where do you think jobs come from?).

    So he put his foot down, and insisted that he supported raising the tax rate, even though everyone with two brain cells to rub together knows it's bad policy.

    It's just like the Dan Quayle quote, "I stand by all of the misstatements I have made."  Except Sen. Obama might say "cling to" instead of "stand by."

    It's pretty funny that you think his gaffe is an example of leadership.  I can understand why you don't want Sen. Obama showing any more leadership at future debates.

    P.S.: neither candidate has "lost" yet.

    Parent

    Really? (1.00 / 1) (#95)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:19:21 PM EST
    So raising the Capital Gains rate is now bad policy?  And you know this.... why?  Because George Stephanopolous said so?  

    Well oddly enough I DON'T accept that premise and neither does just about any left leaning economist I have ever read.  Short term reductions in capital gain tax yields do NOT equate to bad tax policy unless you are a dyed in the wool Reaganite who believes in ideology over public policy. So maybe you think that raising taxes is always bad but then I would suggest you are in the wrong party.

    Steph asked Obama when he stopped beating his wife.  It was a terrible question framed in such a way in which Obama could not give an appropriate answer without engaging the interviewer in the debate.  That's what happens when an allegedly objective moderator passes subjective assertions off as fact that the debater must treat as prima facie truths.

    It's pretty funny that you think his gaffe is an example of leadership.  I can understand why you don't want Sen. Obama showing any more leadership at future debates.

    I have absolutely no idea what this is supposed to mean.

    Neither candidate has "lost".  Hillary can't win though.  

    Parent

    Where did I go wrong in my thinking? (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by daryl herbert on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:55:56 PM EST
    My premise is not that raising the capital gains tax is a bad policy.

    My premise is that raising the capital gains tax will result in less revenue to the government and less investment in creating new jobs.

    Based on that, I've declared it to be bad policy (and I'm in good company).

    1 - Do you dispute that raising the capital gains tax reduces investment?

    2 - Do you dispute that raising the capital gains tax will result in less revenue collected?

    3 - Do you dispute that, in the past, when the capital gains tax was lowered, revenue increased?

    4 - Do you dispute that revenue increased because investment increased?

    5 - Do you dispute that, if the government has less revenue, it can't spend as much on government programs that create jobs?

    6 - Do you dispute that more investment means more jobs created by the private sector? (Assume that government policy is identical in both instances, the only difference is greater investment.)

    7 - Do you dispute that if the government has less revenue, and there is less investment, that there will definitely be fewer jobs?

    Sen. Clinton understands all this.  She wouldn't make the rookie mistake that Sen. Obama did, and even if she had made that mistake, she would have admitted it and moved on, instead of digging herself in deeper.  That's just one more reason that she's more fit to be president than Sen. Obama.

    Parent

    Maybe she does (3.50 / 2) (#108)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:11:32 PM EST
    but you don't seem to...

    Do you dispute that raising the capital gains tax reduces investment?

    Yes.  What is the evidence offered that supports this claim?  Right Wingers certainly like to make this claim.  Here are historical rates.  Please feel free to show a correlation.

    Do you dispute that raising the capital gains tax will result in less revenue collected?

    There is always a short term impact on capital gains realizations after a rate change.  When it goes does people sell CG investments.  When it goes up they hold onto them.  However that is a short term effect.

    Do you dispute that, in the past, when the capital gains tax was lowered, revenue increased?

    Other than a very short term bubble, yes I do dispute that.

    Do you dispute that revenue increased because investment increased?

    Absolutely dispute this.  That is a ridiculous claim.  Revenue increased because people realized their gains that they held off on because they knew a rate change was coming.  Just like you will see a huge drop in CG tax revenues because after a rate hike because bunches of people sell off BEFORE the rate change thus making the perceived delta greater.

    Do you dispute that, if the government has less revenue, it can't spend as much on government programs that create jobs?

    The less 8 years would argue otherwise.

    Do you dispute that more investment means more jobs created by the private sector?

    Sure.  But you are conflating capital gains with capital investment.  Lots of ways to entice capital investment while raising capital gains which deal primarily with financial investments and not economic growth investments.

    Do you dispute that if the government has less revenue, and there is less investment, that there will definitely be fewer jobs?

    Yes I dispute this.  These 3 points have little to do with each other.

    .  She wouldn't make the rookie mistake that Sen. Obama did, and even if she had made that mistake, she would have admitted it and moved on, instead of digging herself in deeper.  That's just one more reason that she's more fit to be president than Sen. Obama.

    You do realize that Hillary advocates raising the Capital Gains tax, right?  

    Admitting mistakes is not exactly Hillary's forte.

    Parent

    Sen. Clinton does not favor a new CG rate increase (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by daryl herbert on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 01:26:15 AM EST
    You do realize that Hillary advocates raising the Capital Gains tax, right?

    Sen. Clinton said that she wants the rate to return to 20%, which is what it will be when the Bush tax cuts expire.  The way I've heard it, it's a right-wing talking point to describe that as a tax "increase."  Sen. Obama, on the other hand, wants to raise it to a painful 28%.

    Your pdf only shows how the capital gains tax rates have changed historically.  It doesn't show how rates of investment changed in response to those rate changes, and it doesn't show how tax revenues changed.

    The [last] 8 years would argue otherwise.

    If a Democrat in the White House has more tax revenue to spend on programs intended to create jobs, I expect more jobs will be created.  What Bush would do with the extra money is irrelevant.

    Parent

    Interesting math (none / 0) (#123)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:29:44 AM EST
    The way I've heard it, it's a right-wing talking point to describe that as a tax "increase."  Sen. Obama, on the other hand, wants to raise it to a painful 28%.

    I hadn't realized that calling change in the capital gains tax from 15% to 20% an increase was a right wing talking point. I learn new things everyday.  

    Seriously, are you a Republican?

    Your pdf only shows how the capital gains tax rates have changed historically.  It doesn't show how rates of investment changed in response to those rate changes, and it doesn't show how tax revenues changed.

    Yeah, I know.  You are the one making that claim.  It is incumbent upon you to prove your claims.

    Parent

    Talking Points (none / 0) (#131)
    by daryl herbert on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 09:21:59 PM EST
    I hadn't realized that calling change in the capital gains tax from 15% to 20% an increase was a right wing talking point.

    The Bush tax cuts were not permanent.  They were passed with a sunset provision and they are set to expire soon.  According to the PDF you linked to, when the Bush tax cuts expire, the rate will return to 20%.

    If Hillary does nothing, and the tax cuts expire, she isn't "raising" taxes.  She's doing nothing.

    As far as talking points go, it's a question of framing the issue: "raising" taxes vs. "letting the irresponsible Bush tax cuts expire."

    Parent

    One other thing (1.00 / 1) (#112)
    by flyerhawk on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:21:46 PM EST
    My criticism of Stephanopolous has little to do with either Hillary or Obama's tax policy.  They both largely agree on future tax policy.  They both agree that the Bush tax cuts should sunset.  They both agree that raising capital gains is probably necessary.

    My criticism is with Steph's pathetic framing.  It was a bad question but he made it terrible by continually asking Obama the same flawed question.  

    Parent

    I will try (5.00 / 4) (#118)
    by IzikLA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 11:54:26 PM EST
    not to insult you.  I think a debate on the issues would be great at this point, especially after the last one, and I agree that this is where I would like to see Clinton win because she thrives when talking policy.  He tends to wither.

    Uh, no one has won or lost yet, and will likely not do so until after everyone has voted and when they decide what to do about MI & FL.  The only people saying she has lost are the ones afraid that she could actually win.  You most certainly seem to be in this group.

    Obama and his campaign have spent much time attacking Hillary Clinton and the Clinton years.  I am so sick of his attacks and the fact that no one calls him out on it.  Just because you say it is so over and over again does not make it so [ie., she's attacking me, she's attacking me, she's throwing the kitchen sick, the china, the buffet, knee-capping me!].  It's gotten beyond ridiculous.  He attacks her character over and over again and he needs to be called on it.

    Parent

    What (none / 0) (#124)
    by flyerhawk on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 06:37:13 AM EST
    What policy was discussed in the last debate?  She simply promised to make the world better.  He defended himself against straw man arguments.  

    What matters of policy are you unclear about regarding the two of them?

    I'm not afraid of anything.  I don't lose sleep over the thought of a Clinton nomination.  Obama is my preferred candidate but I am not so emotionally invested in him that I cannot accept a Clinton candidacy.  In a little over a month all of the states will have voted.  Hillary will still be about 150 delegates behind Obama.  At that time the SDs will throw their weight behind Obama.  

    Fl and MI will not be silver bullets for Hillary.  

    Parent

    Unknown Obama (none / 0) (#125)
    by AnninCA on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 08:48:12 AM EST
    Obama is so unknown.  Until we see him sniping at press questions or losing it on a debate, we can't figure out what the guy really is like.

    I thought the debate gave good insight into how he deals with challenges.  It was interesting to watch the finger-pointing.

    He's big on "Shame on You!"

                                                         

    Parent

    Unknown Obama (none / 0) (#126)
    by AnninCA on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 08:48:28 AM EST
    Obama is so unknown.  Until we see him sniping at press questions or losing it on a debate, we can't figure out what the guy really is like.

    I thought the debate gave good insight into how he deals with challenges.  It was interesting to watch the finger-pointing.

    He's big on "Shame on You!"

                                                         

    Parent

    Is "PUSSY" an allowable word here? (1.00 / 3) (#7)
    by MarkL on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:41:28 PM EST
    Poor Obama.

    No, absolutely not. (5.00 / 6) (#20)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:45:38 PM EST
    The one with THAT body part didn't pull out of the debate.  It's the male part that did.

    Kind of puts a whole new meaning on the word, doesn't it?

    Parent

    Premature debacle (5.00 / 9) (#22)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:47:01 PM EST


    Parent
    I'm sure (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:52:06 PM EST
    there's a drug for that...if we only had national healthcare.

    Parent
    Premature Evacuation (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by daryl herbert on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:41:37 PM EST
    See Also:

    Party elders endorse Sen. Obama before he's been vetted: premature adulation

    "Creative Class" blogs insist the race is over: premature coronation

    Obama supporters gang up to force Hillary out of the race: premature defenestration

    Parent

    Offensive (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by Lysis on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 08:57:18 PM EST
    Female genitalia should not be used as a pejorative.


    Parent
    Ann Coulter just called (none / 0) (#106)
    by daryl herbert on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:00:26 PM EST
    She wants to know if she can use the word "f&ggot"

    Parent
    Probably (none / 0) (#14)
    by Stellaaa on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:43:59 PM EST
     but not the right body part, it's the other one that applies here.

    Parent
    This is so annoying (none / 0) (#107)
    by kayla on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:00:56 PM EST
    He seems like such a whiner sometimes.  I keep hoping that this is all just a ploy, though.  Just politics to make him look like Hillary is beating up on him and he's not going to take it anymore.  I really can't imagine this being his true nature.  Please.  Please let this not be his true nature.

    That being said, I'm tired of debates.  It's not like they're conducted well anyway.

    This whole thread is annoying (none / 0) (#114)
    by white n az on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:55:52 PM EST
    The last thing this world, this primary cycle needs is another 'debate'

    That last one was pathetic.

    Calling Obama out as a chicken for not wanting to do another pathetic debate is pathetic.

    Can we get a grip here?

    North Carolina Debate Scratched | 130 comments (130 topical)

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